The Israeli- Palestinian conflict

[Nyarlathotep]

leo, I didn't say the Isrealies are the cause of the issue. I blame both parties. But calling yourself the "good guys" is just plain dumb in this situation. Neither party in this conflict is "good".

I never stated you opposed to a palastinian state. It's the comment

we are the good guys that try to make peace with the palestines that dont behave like humans.

that makes me puke. Neither the Israeli, or palastinian are good in this matter. You can't convince any one (except those that call themselfs good guys ::)) that Isreal has done nothing wrong during the conflict. Period.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the Palastinian are good guys either !!

[ordos45]

I sorta have to agree with Nyar, I think the "Good Guys" are a myth we all create to salve our cultural consciences. There are no good guys, anywhere, no country is blameless at any time. (Cynical aren't I?)

[Alia Atreides]

I would have to agree with Nyar there are no good guys in war.

In war there are No Winners only Losers.

I live in New York City and work a block away from "Ground Zero" I got to visit terrorism up close and personal. Believe me I prayed for those people in Afaganistan that we bombed night after night after the events of 9-11.

The Israelies are far from being as innocent as the pure driven snow as are the Palaestinians.

If you meet blood with blood there is no hope for either side.

[Acriku]

What do you guys expect the Israelians to do? They are doing their best effort without completely surrendering to the Palestinians in peace, and they are fighting terrorists to keep their country safe. I can't think of anything Israel can do that they aren't doing already, and also it does help to meet blood with blood, because the less terrorists there are the less bombs going off in your streets. I'm surprised Bush talks down on Israelians, when they have had it much worse than the United States, and the United States have gone to war for much less.

[Noam]

I disagree with you. In 1938 the Nazis were obviously the bad side, while the allies were the 'other' side. You can't point a good side in a war but you can definitely point the 'worse' side, and in this case it is obvious that the worse side is the Palestinian terror organization. Israel, thus, is the 'better' side. It's all semantics anyway, we all know which side started it and which side wouldn't end it.

[Nyarlathotep]

What do you guys expect the Israelians to do? They are doing their best effort without completely surrendering to the Palestinians in peace, and they are fighting terrorists to keep their country safe. I can't think of anything Israel can do that they aren't doing already, and also it does help to meet blood with blood, because the less terrorists there are the less bombs going off in your streets. I'm surprised Bush talks down on Israelians, when they have had it much worse than the United States, and the United States have gone to war for much less.

This is about calling yourself "good guys" in a bloody mess that's being uphold by both sides. In this case, retaliation/revenge/right action call it what ever you want has caused many innocent lifes (yeah we all feel sorry. Now let's bomb another refuge camp/ Hey, I'll take revenge, I'll blow myself up in a bus). If then someone from either side (doesn't matter Palastinian or Israeli) calls him/herself the "good guys", then somethings completely wrong in the head with him/her.

If both governments (read governments, talking about governments here) truely want peace, it would have been achieved way back..

yeah yeah, I know, they started it ::)

[Acriku]

Trouble is, Nyar, factions have been delaying peace, such as the Hamas.

[Nyarlathotep]

Trouble is, Nyar, factions have been delaying peace, such as the Hamas.

I know Acriku.. that wasn't what I was discussing. I'm well aware of the factions that cause havoc amongs innocent Israeli lives. I do feel sorry for innocent lives that get lost. That means on both sides (heck, that means everywhere).

I do understand the standpoint of our Israeli friends here on the board, don't get me wrong. I wouldn't want to live in that area myself. But fact remains, this mess is not just being uphold by Palastinians alone..

[Acriku]

Again, what do you expect them to do other than what they are doing? Surrender? Let terrorists bomb them without repercussions?

[Nyarlathotep]

Again, what do you expect them to do other than what they are doing? Surrender? Let terrorists bomb them without repercussions?

If they want to be the good guys, at least stop rushing into palastinian cities with tanks, stop bombing refugee camps, cause there might be a terrorist amongs them (ever seen a precission bombardment on one person in a crowded refugee camp ?). With those actions, usually a lot of innocent people get killed (YES, I know a lot of innocent Israeli people get killed by fanatic Palastinian factions. That doesn't make it right to kill innocent people yourself !).

I'm not saying they can't track down those fanatic factions, heck be my guest, but try to show that your at least willing to make an effort to save innocent lifes.

That would be a start and then, by all means, call yourself the good guys.

[Noam]

We don't bomb refuge camps. We go on foot and search houses for terrorists (we come with lists). The tanks are there because rocks don't hurt them, otherwise we'd have to shoot those who throw rocks. I don't know where you got this impression from, but it's entirely wrong.

I repeat - Never, in the history of Israel, had a refuge camp (who said refuge camps, by the way? They're more like cities) been bombed. Israel does more than it is safe for it to avoid hitting innocent people. The Palestians terror organizations (why factions? Is Al-Qaeda a faction?), of course, do not.

[Andrew]

Yah, they tend to hit civilian places (bus, restaurants), not military targets like the people in Iraq. (except for that UN building bombing which was stupid of them)

[Egeides]

Now you're being pathetic. Note that if the Israelis "couldn't stop their bloodlust" or "were just looking for a casus belli", there wouldn't be Palestinians at all by now. There is a big hole in the ground where Afghanistan used to be once, and you let out no word about it, but when Israel kills terrorists? Woohoo, big conspiracy. Looking for casus belli. You are pathetic. Stop reading propaganda materials (such as your Noam Chomski book) and believing weird conspiracy theories. The fact is that Israel wants to get to peace and does everything it could to get this, while the Palestinians do the opposite.

If you still rather believe propaganda over believing me, this is where the discussion ends. You go your way, and I go mine, and hopefully our ways won't cross ever again.

Have a good day.

PS: Stop reading propaganda. It's bad for your health.

You didn't show me wrong, you only said why you expect them to be wrong (what brang me to chose wrong sources: you don't show they're wrong). Then, any argument saying the opposite of you will meet "It's wrong, they guy is biased." I don't see why your government wouldn't try to get some gains when there's a casus belli: it was done by many others so I don't see why we could discredit the thesis even before looking at it as you did.

I understand that you may be emotional, but you didn't showed that what I read was propaganda, nor did you defined "propaganda". They are independent sources. I understand you may not wish to talk about it so I'll just talk with others, which brings no need for me to call you names. I don't hate people because tey have different ideas.

[Egeides]

Again, what do you expect them to do other than what they are doing? Surrender? Let terrorists bomb them without repercussions?

I'd expect them to minimize civilian suffering and follow Geneve agreement. This means: stop taking their houses, not torture their prisoners, permit prisoners to get a lawyer, not put children in prison, etc.

- Children in prison, no trial, Arabs beaten by police:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150582000

- About diplomatical agreements where you believe your state lets alot to Palestine, here's Oslo II:

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/jan96chomsky.htm

- Saying that Israel was pacific during the Oslo accord is false, use of torture, stealing houses:

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm

[Noam]

What, Noam Chomski? Reading a book of his is like reading Mein Kampf, by Adolf Hitler. He's 10 steps ahead of 'extremist', he needs a new word to be invented in order to be described. I watch the local news and read the local papers, while you read - and let's face it - propaganda. Your Noam Chomski book is a great example.

No, the media here isn't biased. We don't live in Orwell's Eurasia.

How can I prove you wrong? Learn Hebrew and read Isareli newspapers. Sharon has made a speech in which he defined the Israeli presence in the Palestinian Authority area as 'occupation' and said it is our interest to end the occupation. He said we cannot continue like it. Everyone here agrees with him. Your image of Sharon as a really large man who eats arabs for breakfast and drinks their blood in dinner was created by no other than the propaganda you continue linking me to.

Oh, by the way - I won't be here till Saturday, family vacation.

[Mister.G]

Yah, they tend to hit civilian places (bus, restaurants), not military targets like the people in Iraq. (except for that UN building bombing which was stupid of them)

Its not even close to our reality despite the fact it is horrible there aswell.

The Israelis ? if yes you are wrong we are the good guys that try to make peace with the palestines that dont behave like humans.

LOL, that's the funniest statement ever. The Israeli government aren't angels so to speak (neither are the plastinian, don't get me wrong).

This is exactly the attitude why this situation doesn't get resolved. Your government isn't trying to make peace. Both parties seem to uphold the situation as it is.

About the 'good guys' it was just as a characteristic.

Now i will explain myself i meant that the palestines dont want any peace with us, they want to take control over all Israel include Jerusalem.This is the target of their's organizations like hamas etc...

Atm there is delegation that try to make an agreement with the palestines but i dont know if its that serious.About the governments which both of the sides have are idiots,Sharon is doing wierd things and Arafat say something and do something else,despite the fact that he doesnt care about his people and support terror.

You cant make a peace agreement with a 'nation' that divided so much, one say x and the other say y.

I just wanted to comment that:

Please dont let sites which talk about this conflict change your mindopinion so much,because everyone can use the facts and make it looks badgood as he wants.

Try to keep on open mind and the Jews arent 'bad' people like it use to say in many places.

[Egeides]

Noam, I respect your opinion but I have one problem with it: you constantly come with conclusions but don't back them! Take Chomsky's text and say me where it's wrong. All you said yet is "he's wrong since he's extremist". Circular: "He says that thus he's extremist. He's wrong because he's extremist. Thus what he says is wrong." Circular... go further. Please?...

[lowzeewee]

Noam, I respect your opinion but I have one problem with it: you constantly come with conclusions but don't back them! Take Chomsky's text and say me where it's wrong. All you said yet is "he's wrong since he's extremist". Circular: "He says that thus he's extremist. He's wrong because he's extremist. Thus what he says is wrong." Circular... go further. Please?...

Look at Noam's country,he's Israeli. ;) *Hinting hinting ;)*

[Noam]

Is it a rule of nature that Israelis don't back what they say up?

After reading this really long article I'll probably be able to point some important points or facts that will contradict Mr Chomski. But, and it's a big 'but', it will take me a really long time which I simply don't have. You'll have to take my word or to ignore it.

See you on Saturday.

[lowzeewee]

And back them up of course. ;)

Riiiight.Let this debate continue though!

"There were conflicting reports on casualties. Israeli media said several Palestinians, apparently the assailants, were killed. There was no immediate word on U.S. casualties."-Yahoo news

Why are the palestinians killed considered the assailants by the Israeli media?Because they are biased!So are Israelis who follow their news writeups.

[leo]

Noam, I respect your opinion but I have one problem with it: you constantly come with conclusions but don't back them! Take Chomsky's text and say me where it's wrong. All you said yet is "he's wrong since he's extremist". Circular: "He says that thus he's extremist. He's wrong because he's extremist. Thus what he says is wrong." Circular... go further. Please?...

How is it wrong? First of all I have never heard of the stealing of the land, neither did my friends and even not my history teacher. Second, backing up yourself by his articles worth a shit. It was not “calling names" when I described him as a left winger extremists. Israel's society is divided basically into two camps. U have the right and the left wings (yes almost 50% of our countries population is supporting peace willing to sacrifice much more than any country would), Noam Chomsky is related to the left and he is considered to be quite an extremist. There are even articles where he justified Hussein.

Tell me what is wrong in this article? http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26932

[Gobalopper]

lowzeewee instead of posting news that isn't from the Israeli media and then claiming they are biased why don't you post a news story that is actually from the Israeli media?

Maybe something from Haaretz?

[Nyarlathotep]

We don't bomb refuge camps. We go on foot and search houses for terrorists (we come with lists). The tanks are there because rocks don't hurt them, otherwise we'd have to shoot those who throw rocks. I don't know where you got this impression from, but it's entirely wrong.

You mean the live film shoot I saw on the news is fake ?? They computerized the images so that the planes and choppers would look like they were from Isreal ?? OMG ! ::)

Hummz, it seems that what I said is correct by the statement of some of our friends. Just point towards the other side and state that it's all their fault, so let's continue the killing of the innocent. The governments think the same way so your situation will never be solved. Enjoy your war filled lives.

And the statement

You'll have to take my word or to ignore it.

shows the unwillingness of you to want to discuss the issue and prove us wrong. You know we are right, but fail to want to admit it. Seems a popular stance with the parties involved in the situation.

[leo]

We don't bomb refuge camps. We go on foot and search houses for terrorists (we come with lists). The tanks are there because rocks don't hurt them, otherwise we'd have to shoot those who throw rocks. I don't know where you got this impression from, but it's entirely wrong.

You mean the live film shoot I saw on the news is fake ?? They computerized the images so that the planes and choppers would look like they were from Isreal ?? OMG ! ::)

Hummz, it seems that what I said is correct by the statement of some of our friends. Just point towards the other side and state that it's all their fault, so let's continue the killing of the innocent. The governments think the same way so your situation will never be solved. Enjoy your war filled lives.

And the statement

You'll have to take my word or to ignore it.

shows the unwillingness of you to want to discuss the issue and prove us wrong. You know we are right, but fail to want to admit it. Seems a popular stance with the parties involved in the situation.

The film you saw was an attempt to assassin a terrorist driving a car. I do really feel sorry for the people who happened to be in the wrong place and time. But what other option we have?

P.S

Did you know that Israeli pilots have the right to disobey order to bomb a car if, by his opinion, there is too much crowd next to the terrorist?

[Nyarlathotep]

That's just one film I saw. I've seen many more since watching tv. Which reminds me, I need to talk to the person who editted al those movies.. He did a good job fooling me :)