exatreide Posted January 16, 2002 Posted January 16, 2002 "The only thing that we know about heaven is that you will be eternally happy. That's it! We don't know if we will lose our free will or not!"Well Pan If heaven was being eternily happy but not having the ability to make any choices at all. Would u realy want to well um be zombish? Ok evreone knows about how there is a difference in news casts around the world.IE Bombing of adfganistanAmerican newsmen talk about how we have victory after victory and are crushing the evil so and so. But in a iran news channle its would be reported like this er something simmiler.As another infadel bombs a so and so strong hold but the brave fighters wont surender and never will surender, hail zeon! Err somthing like that. But it all comes down to how the people slant it. U dont know how god ment things becouse people alwas slant things to sound better or the simmiler. Its just a thing people do there is alwas a slant. And becouse u cant ask god his side of it your stuck with the human slanted side.
Gobalopper Posted January 16, 2002 Posted January 16, 2002 Ex you do know that no one understands a word you say don't you? Could you at least read over what you post at least once before hitting submit, my little brother could write better then you and he isn't even in High School. ::)
thomas Posted January 16, 2002 Posted January 16, 2002 "heaven is a place of eternal happiness" but what if there is no heaven, what if we just become matter when we die. All of these religious wars in the middle east are really stupid. The muslum people against christians(vise versa) is reallyfunny because they believe Allah is the creator and Muhummid(excuse my spelling errors) is a prophet who spreads his teachings like jesus and god but we just gave them differant names.
quoudam72 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Fed calm down jeez.Why are you talking to me? Who are you and what do you want from me? I am calm.Hello trh5000 how are you doing? I agree with some of what you said. The Muslims do believe that Allah is God and Muhammad was a prophet. Muhammad was the last or what is also called the "seal" of the prophets. The language barrier sometimes gets in the way with different cultures. I say that because you made mention of the different names for the same people. The biggest difference within all the religions is the view of Jesus, that difference is what some of the seperation is about (IMO). Not to mention the political agenda of some of the leaders of the Middle East.
Edric O Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 UsulSK..."So that would mean that there IS free will in heaven. And that would mean, that you CAN sin in heaven. And that would mean, that you can be thrown to hell anytime. And that would mean that the earth has no purpose at all."Are you doing this just to annoy me or didn't you read my post carefully? I ALREADY SAID THAT *ANGELS* HAVE FREE WILL IN HEAVEN, BUT *HUMANS* DON'T (or they have a limited one). Notice that Lucifer was an ANGEL."So, then I may choose it? [total death] Because I would. Pain sucks."If you really wanted to, I'm sure satan would be delighted...You just said in your previous posts that Christians have widely different opinions and we can't all agree on anything... now you're saying we're all alike? ???ExAtreides, I apologise to YOU if I offended you, but I do not apologise to atheists in general. I've been isulted too many times by them to think atheism is anything but evil... which is a shame, really, because so many atheists are such nice people until you bring up Religion...Acriku, you're right about Religion going through some very rough times now, but none of the major faiths will die. Quite the contrary. I think humanity is heading for a large-scale disaster and God knows what will be left when the dust settles... faiths might just be the only thing we'll have left.Look at pollution, look at all the wars, breaking out all over the world... and soon it will all come crashing down on us. Western society is decadent, like the Dune Imperium before its collapse. And I have the scary feeling that Bin Laden or someone like him will assume the role of Muad'hib... Like it or not, a "Jihad" is near. And not just one of the islamic world. No, it will be much larger! 3rd world societies have reached breaking point. They want revenge on the west for all their problems. All they need now is a "Messiah", and then... Ya hya chouhada... :-/Nema, let me put it this way: What would you rather have?1. Freedom to think and do anything, and if you follow God you go to a place of eternal bliss where this freedom is only slightly restricted. If you don't follow God, however, you do go to hell, but you still keep your will and your own thoughts even there.2. Be a mindless drone, unable to think for itself and without any will. You would have to think what God wants you to think. You would be a drone in a Borg-style society.Well? Which is more cruel?By "converting wiccans is not part of those evils", I meant that the forced conversion never happened. If it would have happened, it would have been part of the evils.What I'm afraid of is that history will repeat itself, except that Christianity will be on the receiving end of that forced conversion and persecution (moral persecution this time around, not physical). How would you feel about that?Also, Nema, with the Lucifer remark I didn't mean you're controlled by evil. I meant you (I'm using "you" with the meaning of atheists in general, not some particular person) have philosophical beliefs very close to those of Lucifer ("God is evil, every bad thing that happens is His fault, I have no reason to follow Him" - assuming He exists in the first place).Axissillian, I never claimed that post-Theodesius Rome didn't persecute pagans. I just said that pagan states created AFTER the fall of Rome in Western Europe converted to Christianity by their own choice. In other words, there were a few centuries between the fall of Rome (5th century AD) and the rise of Charlemagne (9th century AD) in which the western pagans converted to Christianity because they WANTED to. The same happened to eastern pagans outside Byzantine borders.What did you want to prove with those Bible quotes? That there are plenty of methaphores in the Bible? I already knew that...As for history, it happens to be my favourite subject in school and I happen to have won a few contests. Wow, lucky me. :)The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches became separated in 1054, when the Pope and the Patriarch excomunicated each other. But that was done for political reasons as well as religious ones. And the funny thing is that the "splinter" group (Orthodox denomination) actually kept truer to the "original" form of Christianity... Well, not truly the "original", but the one practiced shortly after Constantine.
Gobalopper Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 UsulSK thats the problem, you don't speak English as your first language yet you can write it better then ExAtreides who is an American and does speak English. He's just lazy. :)
Acriku Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Why are you talking to me? Who are you and what do you want from me? I am calm. Whatever Fed...Anyways, Edric: I have a question for you. Do you believe that God will only allow one religion (the correct one I guess)? Or will He accept anyone who believes in Him and His 'son'? If you think only one will go, what makes you think that yours is the one? If not one, at what point does God draw the line of allowing people in?Also, the religions that taught the end was to come 2000 or 2001. How did handle it? I never knew how. Anyways, Happy Martin Luther King
quoudam72 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Yes, whatever Acriku but does that mean your not going to quote me anymore, I hope so. I see that I have to tell you also that it is useless to talk to me your wasting your time. In other words you can not help me now leave me. I need not your help in this matter. OKUsul coolness only means one thing to me and that is tempature or the measurement of degrees. I have no need for acceptance within any social status circles. I am my own friend first. And as far as the crying goes there are no tears in my eyes so as I see it I was not crying. Thank you Usul for being understanding in this.
Acriku Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Can we keep this mature and not turn into a teenfest of comebacks and insults?
nemafakei Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 "I meant that the forced conversion never happened" Witch burning in Britain, chiefly by Mary I, allows free will to either convert to catholic christianity or be burned at the stake. No-one was forced into it... the alternative just happened to be death!"Christianity will be on the receiving end of that forced conversion"I'm tempted to say just desserts.But no. I think it would be wrong, as was the christians' attacking of other faiths."Well? Which is more cruel"That's not my point. My point is that you say god made the choice, so he must be responsible for it. And mindlessness is not cruel, because the mindless cannot have the will to resent the mindful.Furthermore, I don't agree with the idea that we'd just be puppets - we'd be less free, yes, - but who's to say we're not already restricted by him, since we cannot see beyond our own capabilities.(this is proof by contradiction that god doesn't exist, so I am assuming that he does in this paragraph)"God is evil, every bad thing that happens is His fault, I have no reason to follow Him"I merely say that there is no God (nor Lucifer as such) in the first place - the above is assuming he were to exist. And I notice that you assume that God is the good one - yet if there is only one god, what's to say he isn't evil?"Like it or not, a "Jihad" is near"On that, Edric, I most certainly agree. It will be called holy war and justified as such - yet economics and politics are more to do with it.
quoudam72 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Then everyone replying would have to stop replying, would they (replys) not be liken to said comebacks that you speak of Acriku?
Acriku Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 I agree Nema. God has in many occurences have let and have done evil doings. Assuming he is real. And don't you think that possibly the Holy Trinity was made up to cover the fact that in the true translation of the Bible, it says Gods (i.e. in plural form, thus more than one God, thus contradicting the verses stating such like There is one God and I am it [not literally taken from the Bible])? Just a thought, gotta keep those minds working! Happy days ;)
quoudam72 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Spiritual beings are not liken to mankind. And in alot of ways you are appling human attributes to beings that are not human. Mankind is an extention of divine beings we are the creation not the creator.
Guest Axissillian Again! Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Q. Why doesn't anyone ever win a Holy War?A. Becuase everyone thinks they are rightI have been thinking about this and have decided to drop out of this conversation. I have been evaluating myself while I have argued on this chat room, and I do not like what I am becoming. While I am sure that Edric and Pan will say I Lost and dropped out because I realised they are right or something, I honestly do not care. In a debate about religion no one will ever conceed, because nothing in the world can sway a person from their beliefs. I only joined because I wanted to defend the religion of the woman I love and the religion I have choosen to follow. However, I have slowly begun to attack Christianity (a good religion) because of the ignorant views of the few. To the Christians who argued against me here, I ask you to reevaluate your views, Wicca are good people too... deserving of heaven far more than many christians. To those arguing against the Christians, I ask you understand that the majority of this religion are good, honest, and open people... who understand and repent everyday for the sins of their ancestors. So to put it plainly, you can keep arguing but nothing will ever be accomplished. I do not know what is out there, but I am a good person... and if there is divine punishment and reward... that should be all that matters.Farewell,Axissillian GallawayP.S. I would rather burn in hell for what I believe... than live in eternal bliss by discarding by deepest beliefs... God can just live it.
Guest Axissillian Again! Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Before anyone continues this debate... I ask you all to visit this site and read in depth the Wicca and Christianity pageswww.religioustolerance.com
quoudam72 Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Well evaluation of self is always good as long as there is positive progress within that being that is self. In a way you won outside of this discussion, as if winning this discussion really matters. The internal struggle to better one's self is worth winning.
Alia_of_the_Knife Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 I would just like to point out that nowhere in any of my many speechs did I call anyone "minions of Satan."
exatreide Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Realy pan? Here is a little discussion the two of us had on aim.exatreide: so u think all athiests are the work of saten?exatreide: satanSwtCait10: Not really, though I do believe that they are influenced by satan. It is totally mean to say that you are the work of Satan.SwtCait10: I used to get on line only on the weekends, but now I am on all the time!exatreide: Wicca are not neccisarly bad people either its not neccisarily a bad relgion either its just how people veiw it. Wicca will defend Wicca, Jews Will defend Jewdisem, Agnostics will defend agnosticisemexatreide: If something realy bad happens whats your first instinct?SwtCait10: To pray.SwtCait10: Why?exatreide: exactly. Do u pray when your on the computer?SwtCait10: The Wicca's is to do magick, some thing totally forbidden in the Bible.SwtCait10: Of course!exatreide: thats sad.......exatreide: the second 1.exatreide: There are certin things that u just cant repent for ya knowSwtCait10: I think that you not having a Savior is sad. Do you think that I care that you think that is sad? About as much as you care that I think you are sad.SwtCait10: It says that all sins will be forgiven.exatreide: What if ur the one who dropped the bomb on nagasaki?exatreide: I dont need a savior to pray to when things get bad. I try and do it myselfexatreide: I would rather burn in hell for what I believe... than live in eternal bliss by discarding by deepest beliefs... God can just live it.SwtCait10: I don't agree with that. You should pray when things are good too.SwtCait10: I really pity you.exatreide: i pitty u toexatreide: well now that we all pitty each otherSwtCait10: I'll be praying for you, whether you like it or not.SwtCait10: Isn't that wonderful?exatreide: well i will be um not praying for u. isn't that special? How dose that make u feel? Probly just the same as u praying for me makes me feelexatreide: I dont realy careSwtCait10: No, that makes me feel more pity.SwtCait10: At least I have someone who will always listen to me.exatreide: Great well i gave u something to do atleastSwtCait10: Though, if you prayed to him, he would listen to you to.exatreide: no he wouldent for it is not there. And if god was there do u think it would be a man or a woman or some kind of hermaphridite?SwtCait10: I don't know. Some day I will know.exatreide: Do u think Buhdisem is as bad as witchcraft?exatreide: what about shindoisem?SwtCait10: I don't know anything about those religions.exatreide: But acording to your belifes evrething that is not about your god is wrong. IE the witchcraft thing.SwtCait10: No, most of the books that I read and the TV shows I watch are not about God.exatreide: Let me repharese yes i know that but as u were saying any relgion that is not about your god. Is wrong SwtCait10: From what I can tell, yes.exatreide: That is sad and nieveSwtCait10: I don't care what you think. You don't judge me and you don't have a right to. What happened to that right to believe whatever they want crap? SwtCait10 signed off at 7:36:58 PM.
Guest Raven Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 *smiles* My my, how people have been posting while I was gone... Being that I have 5 different tests coming up, plus new classes, issues with my mother and her new boyfriend, my father, so-called family, etc, I figured I shall drop out also until further notice. I'm very glad that most of you (Nema, bravo on your points especially, along with Axis!) brought up very interesting and thought-provoking points. Now, before I leave, I would like to clear a few things, including my name to those who are ignorant of who I am and of the total nature of the Wiccan religion. Now, while I am not Wiccan, rather a Witch, a woman devoted to nature, the Goddess, and HELPING and HEALING others as well as good (as opposed to HURTING them and following a path of evil)... I DID do extensive research while trying to discover who I was, what my beliefs were. I was not raised to believe anything; I was taught many different things and chose for myself. Ask any of my friends and Christian little sister, who, sadly, was influenced to that religion from our Christian cousins and aunt. I investigated Shintoism (as much as possible, anyways. I still plan to complete that investigation), Buddhism (My brother is somewhat a Buddhist, and has many little thought-provoking cards of that religion), Taoism (Which I almost went... It fit my beliefs, but I was torn on what truly fitted ME), Wicca (Some aspects fitted me also, while others did not), Christianity (seemed right to me when I was young, but, it seemed to me that my heart wasn't accepting it, that there had to be other things than just that religion as a simple "truth"... The universe is so complex, and yet so simple.. There had to be more out there.), and the simple concept of calling it spirituality... Also, I talked to a few Atheist friends. In a way, that fitted me also. I had many beliefs rolled into one, many from different religions, INCLUDING Christianity, so no one can call me biased. While I am a Witch, to me, it just makes me more aware of nature, of this Earth; and all I did was give God a wife. I do NOT believe in being evil anymore. I used to... Of course, no one is perfect. We ALL know THAT. What I don't understand is why people who were raised Christian, or Muslim, or Wiccan, or whatever, have such a problem with looking at other religions and realizing that some of those points make sense, about being good. I don't WANT a reward for being nice; my reward is simple enough. If I make someone happy from being sad, then THAT is my reward, not some lofty place in Heaven. Now, surely, this can't be coming from a so-called servant of Satan, can it? And why, Pan, do you find Witchcraft disgusting? Did anyone know that there really was no such thing as "black" witchcraft, but that it was created from the Church? And of course, if there WAS black magick, I would NOT be practicing it, as goes against my beliefs. Go ahead and call ME disgusting- I don't care. I know what I believe in, and that it makes sense to me, and that if anyone has a problem with it, then let it be so. All it means is that their soul(s) have to learn more, and that maybe, in a next life, they'll understand my point of view a little more instead of judging me for what I believe in. If they look at it from that point of view in THIS life, then that's great, and I hoped that it taught them something. Once again, it doesn't make sense to me to cause someone suffering when they could be going through so much more. My sufferings have taught me, and, while I have laid them to peace (finally...), they continue to do so and will do so for the rest of this life. I honestly hope that everyone else with such experiences may benefit from the same thing. When you get down to it, everyone is a human... Whether they believe in a God, or a Goddess, both, or a force.. And there should be no reason that a Christian can't be friends with a Wiccan/pagan, or a Muslim with a Hindu, or a Hindu with a Buddhist, and so on. All it means is that someone believes in something other than what you believe, and that should not interfere in a friendship or relationship between people. Sadly, this is not the case.
Guest Raven Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 While I wish it wasn't, unless people realize this also and start putting it to good use, these things shall continue to haunt us. You could be gay, bi, Christian, Muslim, or anything that you wanted to be, and know that there are other people that have the same beliefs and different beliefs than you... But we are all humans. We may speak different languages, and we may have different ethics than others, but we're all of the human race. Nothing will be able to be proved, unless we are ALL aided by divine guidance... For while one man (or woman) may say one thing, another might just say it a different thing. Faith can be a lovely thing in times of need, and that I will not deny. Some people need it, because it teaches them lessons and that there are things to learn in faith. Faith can heal someone who would've died (emotional-wise, and even mentally-wise) who wouldn't have the strength to live or believe in anything good otherwise. People need to start putting aside their differences, and realize the same thing I've been repeating to the point that you're all probably sick of it: We're all people. We all have a consciousness, and obviously, everything has a soul.. It may or may not be true, or it may be different, but everything has a consciousness of SOME kind, whether it's higher than ours or lower. Taking care of plants, of animals, or even a grandmother... If you treat them with love, and nurture them, if they're older or younger than you, then more than likely, they will flourish and respond. A friendship, a trust will develop. This is something we cannot overlook... Just because someone believes something different, does not mean, when you get to the roots, that he or she is not the same as you. Remember these words, please, and put them to good use. You may find friends in unlikely places...A true friend (I have at least two true friends, and, that, I believe, makes me truly, TRULY blessed to be able to have such supporting friendships..), a true love, a soulmate, if you believe in such things. I've found myself a true love, and a soulmate, which is what I know. Just be thankful for things you have, try to look at things from other angles, that everything has a lesson... All religions, all scenarios of life do. I sincerely hope that every single one of you benefit from these things, from my views, and that someday (I know I've said this probably a MILLION times, but this point I cannot stress enough...) it may help you out in understanding and becoming friends with another soul. It is with these words that I leave you. I may return, I may not, but know that I have learned many things from you, and I will put them to good use.-Raven, AKA Sallia, AKA Ashley, 14
Guest Axissillian Again! Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 Hey Ex!! You used a copywrited quote in that AIM convo! *chuckles* j/k
Alia_of_the_Knife Posted January 17, 2002 Posted January 17, 2002 I feel no need to defend myself. I made a mistake. If I have brow-beaten anyone over their faith, I am sorry. I was trying to show you my way of thinking, and defend my faith. It has gotten too far. We are becoming bitter over this, and I don't want to lose any friends or hopefully soon-to-be-made friends. I don't think that anyone has the right to brow-beat some one over their faith. It's wrong. I have been tempted to do so, so I am leaving. I won't be back on this board. Ex, I am deeply hurt. PRIVATE messages are supposed to be private. You promised that you wouldn't cause any hurt feelings by this. You lied. I am not going to threaten you with burning your books or anything like that. I am simply going to ignore you. I hope you are happy with what you have done.I repeat: If I have hurt anyone here, I am sorry. You should know that you have hurt me in this process, but have not shaken my faith. I came on to this board hoping that I could maybe save one person. If I had saved one person, it would have been enough to make all this pain worthwhile. But that didn't happen. If anyone, yes even you Ex, would like to talk NOT DEBATE, about this subject, please feel free to e-mail me at SwtCait10@aol.com.Thank you. I have learned much about the way peoples minds work.Pan
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