Religion

[exatreide]

Well she wasent fired. I was reading it in class cause it i had already done the work. She took it from me for no reason and said she was going to keep it untill u do your work i told her that i had but she took it anyway. Next day she said that she dident want me to bring it to class again. I told it to the prinicpul after the mag thing. And i dont think she was fired i think they were gona but she quit cause evreone hated her and she new she was going to get fired any way.

[ordos45]

Oh, anyhow that would still be an abuse of power, I know my Youth group doesn't like me reading stuff like that.

[ordos45]

Temptation being adressed so much in the forms of sex and violence I just took this poem off my website to add to my replies, on topic since we are discussing our faiths.

Temptation.

It can mean so many things.

It can mean sex.

It can mean drugs.

It can mean certain other things that are wrong.

Temptation.

It is so silky and slick.

It feels so alluring.

It feeds us the darkness we dare not let into our souls.

It tells us everything will be fine.

It tells us to do what we want.

It feels more intamate than any sensual expierience.

It knows your every desire.

It knows your every whim.

It knows your every dream.

It knows that you will give in.

It knows you will accept it.

And it knows you will accept him.

Lucifer, oh Prince of Darkness you think we do not know it is you.

We know oh Dark one, and we want to reject you.

It is impossible to though, unless we try something new.

Something you doubt we will, because it involves not selling our souls to you.

We hear you whispering in our ears not to do it, to spend eternity with you.

To spend eternity in hell.

Yet we know that we can accept Christ into our hearts.

We know he can forgive all of our sins.

That he will forgive us, and that we know and show that his son died for us.

On a cross, so full of pain, that was where Jesus was slain, yet he rose again, to forgive our sin.

We know when we accept him that you will attack us, try to turn us, but once you've become one of God's Children there is no turning back.

Eternity is eternity Lucifer, live with it.

[exatreide]

Ok what the parents did to the wicca kid is just wrong. I dont care what u feel about wicca or any relgion but forcefully converting is just wrong.

[ordos45]

for once we are at agreement, after CHurch if I remember is the Cassie Bernall story.  (note she was one of the martyrs at Columbine)

[Guest Axissillian Again!]

Okay, your trump card doesn't really seem to be enough to complete the deck.  You can use as many anecdotes of people who have converted to Christ, but their argument is minimal.  He may have found joy in Christ, but he is just simply one man, one man... out of 6 billion people on earth.  Here is a great story for you, there was once this deeply religious methodist.  He would not go to bed at night until he read at least one page of the bible.  He prayed everyday for a god's advice in his daily life, but neve got an answer.  One day, at his lowest point he cried to the skies for anything to give his strength purpose and proof.  He got nothing.  What happened to this boy? This boy who should have been happy as a "Good christian"?  He is writing this right now.  Case Closed... spare the anecdotes

[UsulSK]

WOW, it is amazingly stupid to say that humans are responsible for the evil things in the world but god isnt!!!  Think about it:  God is perfect, he made men, he knew the consequences because he knew the future, because he knows everything.  So HE is responsible for everything including evil.  And thats why he CANT punish everybody for the things that HE (god) messed up!

Still, I dont believe in god and thats why it is my oppinion that humans are 100% freely to do what they want, but they are responsible for the consequence.  And it is unhumane to say that humans can only do evil things without god, NO, humans are able of everything and I dont believe in "good" and "evil" anyway, it always depends on your point of view!

[UsulSK]

-why does god give us free will, if he wants us to behave "good" anyway`?

-what happens to babies who die?

-what happens to your soul in heaven?  Are you not

able to commit any sins anymore there?  How come?  The only possible solution would be, that your character is changed.  Thats a sad thought.

-Does a Christian, who stealed an apple go to heaven?  Does an Atheist, who never did anything wrong and behaved exactly like a good Christ should do go to hell?

-can Christians and god really be that heartless about their human brothers who are burning in hell?

[UsulSK]

Oh man, Edric O, dont start to cry:

"- Atheists like to blame Christianity for all the evils of the world. They still haven't found a link between Christ and the great atheist mass murderers (like Stalin and Pol Pot), but I'm sure they'll think of something...

".

Yes, we atheist are all murderers.  We are just soooo evil and eat babies every day.  Why cant we just be such good believers, like the Hitler, Bin Laden or the American Christians who killed Indians.  This argument of you leads to nothing, because humans of EVERY FAITH or NO FAITH killed.  Killing is not a problem of faith.  If you really want to kill, you'll find a reason, no matter what you believe in!!!  The old testament gives lot of reasons, for example.  And I admit, that atheists kill just as much as believers do.  But dont use this argument ever again for your propaganda, because its such a hypocratical one!

[Edric O]

Ex, I think this is the 3rd time in a row that I'd had to answer the same question: Why does God allow suffering? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT REMOTE CONTROLLED ROBOTS!! That's why He gave us free will.

As for perfection - define it. How do you know the Universe isn't perfect? I say it is. Also, it's no big deal to create something less perfect than you. So a perfect being can easily create imperfect things. But not the other way around.

Axissillian, if medieval witches existed, then I want to see something written by them, or some of their places of worship, or SOMETHING that is non-Christian and says those witches existed. As for pagans converted by the Roman Empire, those weren't "pagans". Those were Romans. And some of them were indeed converted by force. But I was talking about CELTIC pagans AFTER the fall of Rome. There was no Christian military force any more! So WHO converted them by force?

I never complained about not being allowed to force school prayer on others. BUT CHRISTIANS SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PRAY AND CELEBRATE CHRISTMAS ANYWHERE! We're not forcing our beliefs on anyone, just worshipping God. And anyone who's afraid of having his/her child "exposed" to other Religions (Christian or otherwise) is an intolerant idiot.

WHY IS ANTI-CHRISTIAN INTOLERANCE ALLOWED??

UsulSK, do I have to repeat this for the 4th time? GOD DOESN'T WANT US TO BE MINDLESS ZOMBIES, THAT'S WHY HE ALLOWS US TO DO EVIL!

Babies who die go to heaven.

In heaven there in no temptation. If you're not tempted you don't sin. It's as simple as that.

A Christian who stole an apple does go to heaven. An atheist who behaved exactly like Christ would also goes to heaven, because he would be without sin and any man without sin goes to heaven. But no such man can ever exist. Never.

Christians being hearless about people in hell - LOL! Why do you think we want to convert others? To keep them out of hell!

I agree with your last post. People of all faiths are equally evil. But most atheists seem to think they're somehow more "moral" and Christians are the worst scum possible. At least that's the dominant opinion in the atheist forums I visit...

And btw, Hitler was a believer, but certainly not a Christian. He was a strange sort of occultic worshipper. He began as a Christian, but then he developed an independent nazi religion. And here's your proof:

Hitler and the occult

[Kantama]

::) My, what a lovely place. A'ight, for those who don't know me, I'm Kantama or Kantama's Blade. Long story, me no tellin'. Anyway. Okay, does anyone here dispute the Bible? Yes? I thought so. You think some maniac or smart maniac or weirdo or something decided to write the Bible, right? Wrong. Ever heard of the Bible Codes? Codes found in the Bible, fortelling of things THAT NO ONE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN!!! They tell of Princess Diana's death, the Ohklahoma Bombing, and many other things. Now, isn't that strange for a book you believe was written by a weird pyschopath.

[nampigai]

THAT I don't believe. It's easy to say after the things have happened. I don't beleive in profecies and guys like Nostradamus and all that.

[nemafakei]

"no such man can ever exist" Why not?

"But most atheists seem to think they're somehow more "moral" and Christians are the worst scum possible"

I certainly don't; I just think most christians are misguided. Some are scum, as are some atheists, but that's nothing to do with religion.

I notice that while many muslims would not enter a christian church, most atheists would be expected to feel fine just walking into a building (and often singing hymns in it) that go against everything they believe in.

"If you're not tempted you don't sin" - So why bother putting temptation on Earth?

"Codes found in the Bible, fortelling of things THAT NO ONE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN" People have done the same thing with the Cheops' pyramid; if you applied every decoder to it or to the bible, you'd also get tonnes of meaningless rubbish and incorrect predictions. People who 'decode' it are looking for events, and so they find them. I bet I could find a rediction of Hitler in Herodotus or something (I'm not going to bother trying, because it's pointless).

As to pagans and romans, remember that a pagan can be a roman as well, Edric! And converting pagans by force is just as bad as converting anyone else.

[Acriku]

PLEASE Kantama! Those codes are coincidences found by people looking for something, and when they find something even the least bit like it they will hold onto it (E.G. they are looking for something to foretell the WTC, and then in the Bible in some strange diagonal  piglatin form they see 2 big things in the air crashing [which could be two meteorites, the moon and sun seeming 'closer', cows being launched from a castle, etc!] and then they tell the world how the Bible predicted two Buildings crashing down). This is just like the Nostradamus predictions, which are so vague anything can be derived from them. Why are predictions not exact and to the point? Because the scammers want to make millions of options fall into them and thus make it seem real.

[Edric O]

First of all, the Bible warns us that no man is sinless. Second, if you think you've found one, show him to me. Well, where is he?

"I notice that while many muslims would not enter a christian church, most Atheists would expected to feel fine just walking into a building (and often singing hymns in it) that go against everything they believe in."

I thought atheists didn't believe in ANYTHING. ;) Leaving jokes aside, who ever forced you to go into a Church? As for school prayer, I just said that Christians should be allowed to get toghether and pray in school if they want to. Not allowing that is a violation of human rights.

Without temptation on Earth we would never know evil. So we would never have free will. In heaven there's no more need for temptation, because you got there by making a choice and using your free will. You chose to go to a place with no evil, even if that means you can't do evil either. You used you free will to decide to go to a wonderful "place", even if your free will is somehow limited there.

Yes, I know the Church did many evil things in the past, but we acknowledged our mistakes and we are truly sorry. Isn't it funny how all those people who claim to be better than us don't even have the hearts to forgive us for something OUR ANCESTORS did?

But converting wiccans by force is not part of those evil things.

       

[exatreide]

What if the baby that died shoved somthing into her mouth and chocked to death? She would be a baby but she would still be commiting a mortal sin. The reasons most aithests would go to church is becouse they dont hate any religions they just ecept them. So even if they would go to a church and sing they most often do not mean any of it and just did it for there family and such.

[ordos45]

(WHat good is a youth group if they won't help you in a religious debate?)

Ex, I personally believ that there is an age of responsibility, before which you go to heaven regardless, hince the faith of a child.  

Now for my Cassie Bernall Story, she was one of those that said she believed in God and then got shot in the head for it at COlumbine.  Her parents, before she died, went into her room and found a stack of letters, those letters contained correspondence about how she wanteed to kill her parents and how she was planning to do it someday, it also contained the fact she was getting into the black magick side of witchcraft...not the usual kind.  THey pretty much made her lose all of her friends that they considered bad influences, made her do who knows what else, and kept tabs on her.  She then became, what was that quote from the book "Rachel's Tears"?  Oh yes "A fine and moral person."

Axis as for your story, maybe you just didn't wait long enough for a sign from God, he doesn't answer prayers right away all the time.  HOwever you even reading the bible every day, well I could never do that.  However I did get a new bible for Christmas and I was looking stuff up in it today, I till have yet to find a good enough verse to post on the topic of the occult.  

(And now to see the reaction of anyone who knows about one of the religions we've been talkign about, see if you can pin where this phrase comes from, which religion?)

Blessed Be!!

[Guest Axissillian Again!]

Alright Edric first of all, those were Celtic pagans forcefully converted well before the fall of the Roman Empire, those we the "missionaries" I talked about earlier.  Secondly Your comments only help to prove how little you honestly know about the Pagan and Wicca religion.  The reason there were no texts is because the pagans were a mostly illeterate people, their traditions were passed down orally, like the Greeks with thier myths (which is why there are so many variations of every greek myth... as there are variations of every Pagan tradition).  Secondly you are trying to compare two very different religions as if they were the same.  The pagans did not have temples or places of worship.  They worshipped in their homes or in the forests, which.  Sorry to say, but there has never been any Pagan "church" in existence.  The closet thing they ever had to a place of worship was Stone Henge... and it's actual purpose is still theoritical.  So, the reason there are no texts is because there were no texts to begin with.  The reasons that there are no places of worship, there were never any built areas of worship.  So, once again the mountains of evidence towards the existence of medieval pagans and the forced conversion of pagans throughout history.  BTW there was a christian army after the fall of the Roman Empire... it was called the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH!!!!!!  The roman catholic church not only existed after the death of the Roman Empire... but preserved it's heritage and did, with lots of evidence, violently convert pagans.

[Guest Raven]

*smiles softly* Will-chan, you forget. The Church also BUILT on the pagans' places of worship...  Just thought I should add that in. And Galaxy-chan? You wanted my attention, I noticed, and so I'll reply. Blessed be is a phrase from the Wiccan and other areas of Witchcraft, used in saying goodbye and in certain rituals. Also, Galaxy (Ordos), "black" witchcraft came about from the paranoia of Christians and the Church... It did NOT originate from the past pagan origins, from what I have read. In others, it may well be... But common "black" witchcraft came from the fears of the Church and the need to control, nothing more.

"Axis as for your story, maybe you just didn't wait long enough for a sign from God, he doesn't answer prayers right away all the time.  "

In response to that... You'd think that someone devoted to God and wishing that badly for a sign would recieve it within a few years. I have a story similar to Axis'. My parents used to fight almost every day for most of my life, and I never got along with my father. When I was about 6 (yes, you heard me, 6..) I started reading the bible and praying for happiness. I prayed every night for a half-hour for all the people of the world, because I felt it was selfish to only pray for those I loved and were close to me and not pray for people who were precious in other's eyes. I still do, but not in the name of the Christian god, but in the name of universal love. I prayed for things to get better, for people to get better who were only a little sick.. I prayed for everything to be nice and not horrible just for once. Nothing happened. My second mom, one of my mother's friends (Kim), committed suicide. My great-grandma, who was actually pretty young, died, and I knew the night before. My parents fought more, there was abuse, and there was nothing but chaos, let alone whenever I gardened with my grandparents or by myself. Sooner or later, my grandparents moved to Malaysia, most of my flowers died from unknown reasons... My cat Gino, who I had known since I was brought home after I was born, developed feline leukemia, tumors in his head, and to top if off, feline AIDS, as did our other cat. Both died when I was 7.  My other grandmother was in two car accidents, almost died (that she lived I can be thankful for..), and I've barely known my other grandfather because he was too busy having another family than to pay attention to his daughter and grandkids. During that entire time, I prayed, while my hope was mercilessly slashed and shattered for over 7 years. I gave up then... So do NOT try and say that maybe he should've spent more time. I'm a hell of a lot happier as a Witch, more connected to nature, than praying my a$$ off hoping in vain for something better to happen. If he's happier as he is (which he is, I know, for that matter..) than let him be. Please, ask me more questions....

[exatreide]

If there is a god prayer is not the way to contact him.  I have a little story of my own. I use to be a nice little Jewish kid. Praying with my mom at the end of evre night untill about 2 years ago. My step dad Was electracuted and nearly died. My grandpa was diagnoced with Altimerz and now he cant even reamber my name and just about anything. My mom has gone deaf in one hear and my dad tried to commit suicide but failed now he has to take massive dosses of morphine evre day just to keep the pain at negibul levels. But when ever I go down there i have to watch him in encredibul pain.  His house Burnt down. The contracter who was going to build it ripped him off by $28,000.  My step mom devopled Breast cancer. That is why i am athiest. God abandonded me . He abandonded me so i abandonded him. And started watching Discovery Science and reading alot more.

[ordos45]

What are you all the entire book of Job?  Let me add my own stories here, I am still a CHristian.  My great grandmother died when I was four, her last words to me a curse word, my grandma on my dad's side died while I was on vacation at Gettysburg and we had tog ob ack home, we went on vacation 3 days later, having made the funeral arrangements when her husband died, then my great aunt on my mother's side developed everything from liver cancer, kidney cancer, to lung cancer and had to have several organs removed(she finally died after years of suffering when I was 10).  My grandmother on my mother's side has Alhzeimers and doesn't usually remember who I am and tries to call the police on me, not too mention her recent quadruple heart bypass surgery.  My other Great AUnt on my mom's side nearly died of a heart attack when I was staying with her when I was 11.  My AUnt on my mom's side has a foot they can do nothing for, My uncle on my mom's side has a busted kneecap.   Most of the living relatives on my dad's side of the family are either in jail, on the run from the cops, or in court ordered anger management classes because of the abuse they suffered as children.  I never knew an uncle on my dad's side because he was a drunk who died of some liver disease.  Now my cousins on my mom's side both have asthma and several other minor medical conditions.  

Now you may have noticed I left out my grandfather on my mom's side.  He had two heart attacks, a bypass surgery, and when I was 12 he had a stroke the night before i was going to go to Las Vegas for Spring Break, he was given no chance of survival, he suffered in a Nursing HOme for 3 years unable to speak, move most of his body, defend himself against a woman molesting patients, his death was a blessing for him.  So when you think that I cannot relate just because I try to be the good little Christian don't.  I can relate and I nearly did shrug off God for Wicca once, but I dove deeper into my faith to keep me strong through all of this.  It isn't easy, but it is possible to keep faith when your life is full of suffering.

Well I have to concede on the sex front, due to the fact I just read SOng of SOngs in the bible.  It containes the most explicit verses about sex in the bible.

[Guest Raven]

Whoever said we thought you couldn't relate? I never said anything of the sort, Galaxy.  And no, because if I was from the book of Job, then more than likely I'd be like him and stick to Christianity and get rewarded in the end. My grandfather has had about 5 major heart attacks and a TON of the bypass surgeries, so I can relate to you there. I'm lucky if I see him once a year, and lucky if I even talk to my other grandparents in that long. It seems, though, we're straying off subject of our original topic, ne....? Of course, I helped start this, so please excuse me..

[ordos45]

Ok back to religion, Wicca is classified as the occult.  The occult is bad because it draws away from the true God.  Witchcraft seems harmless but gotta love this gy in my youth group, "THere are to religions, the type that worship GOd and Demonic, Wicca is demonic.  All of their powers come from demons, your Wiccan friend draws her dark powers from demons."   (Back on topic?   :)

[exatreide]

Actuly most of Wicca has more to do with Nature then demons.

[Guest Raven]

LMAO!!! Ok, Galaxy, you know me well enough. While I can be VERY aggressive at times, do I seem like the type to call upon demons? (Ok, so I've been becoming more gothic, but that's not the point.) Ex, that IS very true. Wicca does NOT have anything to do with calling demons, unless, Galaxy-chan, that guy meant the invoking of the Goddess and the God, something more common in the Ceremonial Wiccan's part. The Kitchen Witch (AKA, one who is aware of nature and is connected in spirit to the Goddess and nature etc., uses herbs in cooking to heal and help others, dances under the moon to celebrate the sabbats..) MIGHT incorporate that into her beliefs... That's what I am, but I haven't invoked the Goddess. Please give your friend my email address; I'll gladly have a nice little debate with him on the subject.