Religion

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Nema so tell me this,

How can a Machine or a Bloody scanner possibly Scan or compute Energy or some other phenoma that is impossible to scan.

Super natural doesnt include Science some phenoma's does partialy but most of them can never be discoverd by science

Example: Ghost... Undead.. Not living. Aura made of Unknown energy

Computer= Scans eletric's physics solidity?

What do you get a big Negative

[Acriku]

Well Shogun, if one were to say life is full of hell, would he not have a pessimistic view on life? If it is a pessimistic view on life, one would come to the conclusion that one does not like life. Who would like a hellish life?

Also, I say God for the sake of the argument. I personally don't believe in God, and another reason I say it as if He is real is habitual respect, which I have had all my life in the synagogue.

And Sard, in 10 years NASA got into space with a man, and came back alive. Think of the millions of things we could do in 100 years! Or 1000! Science has no limits, and we will keep finding breakthroughs till we all wither and die.

[evilbaronatreides]

I have a question: Do people confuse their god/s with their religion? I know that many people in my community place their religion before their god, they praise their ideals before their God. Its very scary since they begin to become immensly fanatical and do things that would please Islamic fundementalists (They are brutal). So I do ask, why do people place religion before their god.

[Gunseng_Harkonnen]

Yes, it`s true. In my community, when is Jesus Christ celebration, people put pope pictures on the windows, not Jesus pictures. it looks like they think pope is more important person than Jesus. Muslims too.

[nemafakei]

"How can a Machine or a Bloody scanner possibly Scan or compute Energy or some other phenoma that is impossible to scan."

What is impossible to scan? Even ghosts have energy emissions. (assuming they exist)

And my 'faith' in lack of gods is dependant on my morals and beliefs.

[UsulSK]

>The Christian god is sovereign he can change the law

>whenever he pleases. And anyway does man's law

>stay the same no, ever heard of revisionism?

You can not compare man to god, since god should be perfect.

[nampigai]

There's no logical explanation for love yet alot of people believe in it. Just because there's no explanation doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist.

[Acriku]

Love can be explained scientifically, with nerve stimuli and hormones. Hormones bring actions and feelings to the person, love for example, and a person reacts to it. But what is love? Just a mentality, not something that is physical. It is a figment of your mind.

And usul, bravo with the argument with Santa Claus.

[nampigai]

I don't believe it you say that love at first sight can be scientificly explained?

I don't believe that religion are to be explained, not all things are.

[quoudam72]

>The Christian god is sovereign he can change the law

>whenever he pleases. And anyway does man's law

>stay the same no, ever heard of revisionism?

You can not compare man to god, since god should be perfect.

[TMA_1]

lol you dont know much about the scriptures do you shogun? It says that christ is the fulfillment of the 2nd and 3rd codexes of the jewish law. The tabernacle and the varius animal/food sacrifices were a sign. The sign that a redeemer would take sin away from mankind. Christians do and should believe that christ fulfilled the laws of sacrifice. We believe that christ came to die on the cross and ressurect to fulfill his death on the cross so he could stand on the seat in the great heaven. Christ was god the son and man together. Complete man and complete god. The trinity isnt three gods but one god in three manifestations. Christ is god with us. He is the hybrid link between man and god. Without him god would not be connected with us:)

[Edric O]

Asdrubaal, who started with the insults, hmmmmmm?

Nema:

When you say "God is omniscient", you have to remember that this is a result of Him not being subject to time. When you're asking why did He made the test if He already knew the results, you're thinking from the human locked-in-time point of view. God thinks differently and He knows a lot more about time than we do. ;) You simply CAN'T know God's reasons for doing things like these (creating the Universe, etc.), because you can't even imagine how He thinks.

"To hell with rational decision"? Well, to some extent, yes! Logical arguments are only a small part of my reasons for being a Christian. "Logic" is way overrated. We simply do not know enough to have a sound logic, so our reasonings usually aren't worth squat.

As for science being able to do everything... Several people said it: There are NO limits. So there will always be some things we won't know. We'll never explain EVERYTHING, because there's an infinity of things waiting to be explained.

UsulSK:

God CAN abolish hell. But He doesn't want to. He's commited to the rules that He set.

All humans deserve hell, but if you accept and follow Jesus you won't get what you deserve...

If you were God, would YOU grant a bloodthirsty maniac eternal hapiness? You might say that you ask more of Him simply because He's God, but that would be hypocrisy. God or no God, you can't blame someone for doing exactly what you would do.

We are not children, we are responsible for our actions. God likes to call us His children because he loves us, but compared to Him we're something like bacteria are compared to us.

Some people say belief is all you need to go to heaven. I say that leaves room for too much hypocrisy. You've got to act according to your belief in God in order to go to heaven.

And God NEVER changed. He simply changed His Law, probably because WE changed.

As for the "killing is wrong [...]" argument, IMO the only "wrong" things are those that go against God's will and the only "right" things are the ones that please God. Besides, God might have His own reasons for doing something apparently wrong. Maybe He was avoiding something worse.

Acriku:

"life is great and life is plentiful" - ROFLMAO!!!!! Tell that to the millions of starving children! ::)

Wait a minute... Usul, you just gave me a great argument:

How can an atheist PROVE that his moral system is good? How can you KNOW that killing is bad, without a reference system (such as God)? EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE! I could argue that the killing of the weak is good. How do you know your values are the right ones?

[Acriku]

Edric Edric Edric, life is great and plentiful for ME. It may not be for anyone else, but for ME it is. And why should I have to include the fact that people have worse lives than me? Sure it is unfortunate, but hey that only makes you frown, while a smile is what I want to do.

And Edric, from your "great" argument with Usul, the only reason you "know" what is right and what is wrong is from what you have been told. I am speaking for myself, and if there were no right or wrong in this world it would be chaos. THAT'S why I know what is right or wrong, just by simply putting both on the table and imagine what would happen if we had one or the other. And everything is circumstantial! State the predictament and then I can decide if it is right or wrong, based on logic!

And Edric, are you questioning everything millions of people have studied, discovered, theorized, etc? You have to think logic is real, because if you don't everything can be disproven and is no use. It all becomes moot. The computer you are using to post is from science research and experimentation, from logic! Your computer works does it not? People made the computer through logic , which you think is "overrated".

Hmmmm  ::)

[evilbaronatreides]

If neural cells control emotions, that really takes the fun out of life doesnt it?

[Acriku]

Why is that evil?

[ordos45]

It is evil because it takes away the romantic view of life.  Love at first sight, no.  Nueral cells are telling you lust a first sight.  We need to think of ourselves as more than infections on the skin of the universe and space time continumm.

[Acriku]

We are the Infection and Time is the Cure.

[TMA_1]

neural cells in certain parts of our brains as well as certain hormons and stimulants in our body do produce emotions. THe bible says so. There is never a mention of emotions as a soul issue in the greek and hebrew. They always say it is from the saddles of the bowels. Or from the gut. Or from many other enzyme or hormon producing organs. Like the saddles they talk about are the fatty pads on the kidneys. That produce adrinalin.

We are to be thoughtful people. Not people of emotions as christians. Emotions are to be a contributer of our life. Not what life is. They add to what our mind contributes. Emotions arent what make the soul. It is deeper then that:)

[Edric O]

Acriku, how can you be happy and feel great knowing that so many hundreds of millions of people are suffering at this very moment? And knowing that we are part of the cause of their suffering?

1. How do you know chaos is wrong or bad?

2. If the world would be controlled by a nazi regime, it wouldn't be chaos...

Try this: DEFINE good and evil, without using God. And after you do that, tell me why is your definition better than others. For example, I could say life is evil. Therefore it's good to kill as many as possible and even destroy life on Earth. Prove me wrong! All you have are your values, which are just as good as anyone else's!

I'm not questioning what millions of people have studied and discovered (not questioning the dogma of science, of course), but I am saying that all that is less than a drop in the ocean. Our logic is faulty because our data is faulty.

[Acriku]

Edric, I try not to think about those people that are suffering. I'm not going to go where they live and try to save them all because I know I can't. I don't have the money or time to do it, so I resort to forgetting about it.

And if a Nazi regime took over, 1. They couldn't. 2. If hypothetically, I'm not saying that all things that are not chaos are not bad, I'm saying without a sense of what is right or what is wrong, there is no order, people would do what they want and it would be impossible to organize an army because to follow a leader one would have to think it is right to follow that leader, and without that sense you would feel you don't have to and you won't.

And also, if I were God sure I would let a murderer into Heaven, because I am all forgiving and you cannot commit sin in heaven, so says you.

And what data are you talking about? All of our data? Or just data about, say, microwaves? Or data about how we approach experiments, etc?

And when did I say my values are better than anyone else's? I just follow my own, and I am happy. I don't need to define good or evil becuase it is common sense to me, and think about this: I am born on a deserted island and no mention of God has entered my head for the 20 years I am there. I then find out a woman is living on the other side, do I kill her? No, because I have the instincts to think that she is part of our survival, to make more of us so we don't die out. I did what is good without God, is that not enough for you or do I have to argue more about it?

[evilbaronatreides]

arguing about doing good deed with or without a god? Isn't a good deed just that? Nothing more? I thought humans had the ability to make deciscions on their own, so if a good deed is made, that was their choice.

[TMA_1]

Good deeds without god are worthless and evil. I shouldnt be saying this because the bible tells not to speak to unbelievers about what believers believe. wow that was a tongue twister.lol Christ died for all sins. If you dont let murder go pardoned then you are taking away from the cross of christ. He died for all sins and it is by his grace attitude that he saved the killer. Christ also says that if we even think of killing. or if we even think of sex outside marriage or before we are married. that we commit the sins we think. If it wasnt for christ we would all go to hell. We all deserve it because I have thought of killing somebody. I have thought of having sex and doing drugs and all that evil stuff. But by christs grace I am saved. It is that simple:)

[Acriku]

TMA, if believers cannot tell unbelievers what they believe how do they get people to convert? Also, the Bible says to not do something, but if you do do it, Jesus has died for that sin and it is ok, that is saying ok this guy died so we can sin without punishment?

[Edric O]

You still miss my point. I'm saying that without God, you can never know what's good and what's evil!

Acriku, one man is indeed powerless. But 10 000 aren't. All it takes is one man who will find others that share his beliefs and unite them.

What if people DID have a sense of right and wrong, but it would be the complete opposite of ours? Can you PROVE that ours is better? Can you PROVE that we're right and the nazis are wrong?? Without God, you can't.

About sinning without punishement: If you do it on purpose, that means you're a hypocrite and you only believe in order to have a license to sin. Such people won't go to heaven.

[nemafakei]

Defining good and evil:

Well, I think destructive intent is evil, and constructive is good. From there on in it should be easy enough.

"Can you PROVE that ours is better? Can you PROVE that we're right and the nazis are wrong?? Without God, you can't"

With god you can't. When you define it using God, you end up with something along the lines of "everything god does is good". Which is not intrinsically better - how do you know God isn't some evil sadist laughing at us all.

"God's reasons for doing things like these (creating the Universe, etc.), because you can't even imagine how He thinks"

and

""To hell with rational decision"? Well, to some extent, yes!"

and

"We'll never explain EVERYTHING, because there's an infinity of things waiting to be explained"

So now you're expecting us to abandon trying to explain things with science and our effort to understand the universe and follow some religion with no rational reason in order that we become closer to a being (who, by the way can do anything and knows everything and is by definition always good and just and wonderful (yet condones all the evil and "millions of starving children" in the world) ) - a being who we can never even hope to know anything significant about (and "to Him we're something like bacteria")...

I wonder if that's enough to convice me to turn christian?

PS: Look at that wonerful, single sentence!