Nuclear War

[The_old_worm]

Gryphon, I agree with you that we are all tied together.  That is what I was trying to say, not just that we(USA) are stuck being involved with the rest of the world, but that all countries are interdependant.  Like I said, isolationism is doomed to fail.

And you can seperate Arabic people with Arabic countries.  We have many Arabic people here in the U.S. who have no ties to the politics of the region.  In fact they come here to escape from the violence and oppression in their region.  Just as we have many people from China, who are not tied to Chinese politics.

We may manipulate some governments, in order to create stability, protect the innocent, and to (I'll admit) advance our own interests.  Force is sometimes necessary to protect us from a direct threat.  The Taliban presented a direct threat to us as does Saddam Hussein.  If these regimes are going to support terrorism, they are declaring us an enemy.  If we are attacked, we have the right to defend ourselves, just as any country does.

Kirov, I agree with you on the issue of Nukes, but do you really want a world where everyone has Nukes?  I honestly don't know the solution to that one, because I agree, it is unfair.  I sure don't want Saddam Hussein to have Nukes though.

[Acriku]

Kirov, would you like to have everyone have the same amount of nukes, so we can have a fair war and everyone is happy? Don't think so. The nukes right now are an intimidation tool, maybe used in the future (God forbid).

[gryphon]

I was beginning to get that idea myself, that we are constantly saying almost the same, just with different words and somtimes from different angles.

But those Arabic people who live in "our" country get the natianality of our country. If not right away then in a few years. So then they arn't Arabic's anymore [ or any other country for that part ]. You can have your own religious believe, but your nationalety becomes that of your new country.

What I was trying to say was not that you can place a [ phisical ] Arabic persone out of his country but as a nationality that's not possibe. You have the nationality of the country you live in, when you move to another country you will get the nationalety of that new country eventually. [ here it is within 5 years if I'm correct ]

My statement on nukes.

Think the best solution is that mention in Dune. The use of nucliar weapons has to be outlowed. Just keep "a few" for some possible enemy that we can't predict at this moment.

But I'm open to the use of nucliar science for means of energy and sutch.

[vidiware]

Ok i can agree, but usa are not God or something so why dont the back of and lets the Arab countries , fight for them self, and let another (more diplomatic land) play god ::) ;D???

Let the East fight without help from the west !! = No nuke war ;D

[Acriku]

If we decide to go to isolationists from the Middle East, many things could happen. We would get insulted and verbally shot down for being cruel and letting the Arab countries fend for themselves. We would have people everywhere saying the President needs to be impeached, and probably will be then. Other things would happen, but who knows. That won't stop nuclear war, it may only just delay it. Or it can even rush it.

[The_old_worm]

We will not back off the Arab countries because many are directly or indirectly responsible for Sept 11.  We have the right to hunt down those terrorist bastards and bring them to justice, and we also have the right to defend ourselves from future terrorist acts by taking out direct threats to our security.  It's not about playing God, it's about justice and safety for our citizens.  

I would hope that you could see the bigger picture vidiware.  You don't seriously think that letting the Arabs duke it out won't effect other countries dramatically, do you.  Like was said before, we are all interconnected, and problems in the Middle East will tend to affect us in the long run.

Besides, morally, we can't stand by and allow human rights violations, mass murder and other atrocities to happen when we have the capability (not just the US but with coalition efforts) to stop these things.  My analogy is this; It's like seeing a husband killing his wife and kids across the street.  You have a gun in your hand. Now do you intervene or do you say "It's their business, not mine"? But that's what you would have us do vidaware. It's not a matter of playing God, it's about helping those that can't help themselves.

[jacobdouds]

But, if you have a Gun in your hand, do you shoot the husband. You have to learn to intervene without commiting a crime yourself.

[Acriku]

It isn't a crime if you shoot the shooter - self defence and risk of hostage killed.

[vidiware]

Killing is bad!!!

Doesent matter if it is your enemy, why not have a duel in a Dune game, (up to 8 countries at same time in Emperor), the winner are the winner of the countries! ::)

And you can get a desert , industry , ice and green grass map in Emperor ::)

Why not????

Nuclear war in the World is not andy better, and they are stupid if they starts one, (i know there are many religius fans out in the world who want, that their relegion is the right one and will fight for it but.... )

[The_old_worm]

My point is, vidiware, as I've said before, there has to be some kind of international law.

[ordos45]

OMG I am actually agreeing with the Old Worm, whoever thought they would see that.  But yes, the US does get involved a little too much sometimes in foreign affairs.  But take this for example a Canadian wrote a letter to CNN about how the USA and its foreign policy was to blame for all violence in Israel.  I would hate to be the one to break the news to the person who wrote the letter, but the Jews and Palestinians have been fighting throughout history.

Now for the point: "My point is, vidiware, as I've said before, there has to be some kind of international law."-Old Worm

I am not sure because I have only read the sections referring to the rights of POWs, but it might be outlawed within the confines of the Geneva Convention.

Oh and as for invading Iraq, I listen to Oliver North who covered the topic in detail a few weeks ago.  According to US Government estimations an invasion of Iraq would take 250,000 troops if everything went smoothly and with light casualties.

[vidiware]

Okay, I agree!!

But, as long as the world has a law, nuclear war, is not an option, unless you want to terminate, the world! ::)

[The_old_worm]

I agree vidiware.

[Acriku]

Well let's not get too rifled from a few countries "opinions". They are a distraction, and should be ignored. The big plan is Nation Security and International Security. Leaders don't make good decisions with opinions sticking up their arse. True we shouldn't get shot down with insults, etc, but countries who take in account of what others think of it will fall.

[gryphon]

Don't worry, my feathers are more for showoff than to get them dirty and wrapt up together, that would be messy ;D

I agree with you [ think I've mentioned it before ] the rest of the world has called the USoA for help a lot of times before, and they where never to afraid to help.

And besides that they had there own wars, like Vietnam and now against terrorism. [ I don't place blame for the Nam war, just didn't now of any other resent war of the USoA, Desert storm was mostly US related but I think they did it with the support of a lot of other countries ]

And know the USoA has a war of his owm and whant to fight that they arn't allowed to do so, it seems even unfair in a way.

[ "Right now we, the U.N. have the power to enforce these laws, and we U.S. shoulder most of the financial and military burden for this enforcement.

[The_old_worm]

Well let's not get too rifled from a few countries "opinions". They are a distraction, and should be ignored. The big plan is Nation Security and International Security. Leaders don't make good decisions with opinions sticking up their arse. True we shouldn't get shot down with insults, etc, but countries who take in account of what others think of it will fall.

Well, some countries we need to take heed of, like Russia, and China.

[quoudam72]

The Middle East situation does need some sort of resolve (Israel and Palastine). Both leaders (Sharon and Arafat) have failed at providing the sort of resolve both sides will participate in. The offensive that Israel is displaying at the moment is appalling, I know they are besieged by attacks from Palestinian militants but what is the cause of the attacks at the moment, their offensive is the cause.

I would like to point out one thing...what type of weapons are the Palestines using tanks, planes or any other heavy manufactured weapons? The answer is of course no, they are using homemade bombs (suicide bombers) and of course guns. They have no airplanes or even tanks. Israel has all of these weapons and still the Palestine fight. This is something significant because the reality of the picture says something is more is taking place within the picture. Before I linked to an article that the US would use nuclear weapons in certain events (and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is mentioned). My question is Palestine that big of a threat to either (US and Israel) without an army (conventional). History will judge all involved with this conflict harshly and with no remorse if a solution is not found for the better of the Middle East.

[nampigai]

I agree with you fed action is needed now. Peace will never excist in the middleeast if UN or some other organisation doesn't act soon.

Both parties have apologies to make therefore I don't think that either Sharon nor Arrafat are able to lead the negotiations on behalf of their people.

I see that the suicide bombs can be looked upon as terrorism but still the Israelli attacks is IMHO unacceptable. I don't have any sympathy with any of the parts only the civilians and innocent people who wants peace.

The only persons who doesn't want peace is the leaders. I think that Bush is the worst president ever to have been elected in the US he has no diplomatic flair and sides only with one of the parts. How will he then get rid of terrorism?

I think this problem should be taken very seriously it could escalate into a mojor conflict and I don't thinks Israel will be as lucky as they once were.

[nemafakei]

A country like the UK should occupy Jerusalem. Either that or flatten it.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

All what i know, if america is gonna intefere with everything Military "Style"

They will only create hatred upon other country's.

America has manipulated country's enough  and will surely get bombed again by the Terrorist's.

I think the American's has done a great job driving out the Taliban, but they did make another enemy with that.

But the Taliban and Osama bin laden is not the only terrorist faction. There are some other Anti American Organization's.

Anyway's, Taliban did arise by the Support of America some years back. America gave them weapons and with that they started a Organization to Supress the people in Afghasitan. (How ever you spell it  ::) )

It will happen again if the American's make the Same mistake.

[The_old_worm]

First of all, we don't interfere with everything military style.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

Oh and i supose the Economy of the Americans and "freedom" is a good excuse for the Terrorist attack.

Yeah let's attack the American's because they are rich and free....

America is Manipulating other country's and i doubt that they will take Diplomatic matters. America is a like a dog... If you don't listen to them. They will growl, if you still don't listen they will bite you.

America has no right to interferre with other Country's , They caused the Taliban to exist with giving them weapons and its their fault that the Organization has weapons now.

Let the Middle east's fight their own war, its their Business. Jew's and Pakistan people are enemy's for a long time.

If America is gonna meddle with it, they will only "Cause" more hatred and problems with the Arab's. The so called Chain effect will occur just like in WW2.

Germany attacks that country. Other country's gets mad and attack the germans... German's conquer's the attacking country and the ally of that country gets mad. Etc etc

[The_old_worm]

The excuse for the terrorist attacks it that we don't let other countries do whatever the hell they want to.  We don't let the Serbians be mass murdered, we don't let Saddam Hussein kill his minorities to test biological weapons, we speak out against the human rights violations in China, We defended Kuwait and Saudi Arabia from Iraq. We condemned Pakistan and India for testing nuclear weapons, and yes, we helped the afghan people fight the Soviets.  Like I said, our mistake there was in not helping them establish a stable government.  By the way, the Soviets are responsible for the Taliban.  Without their occupation, they never would have been created.

People get pissed off at us because they want to be able to do whatever the hell they want to. Ethnic cleansing, human rights violations, letting your civilians starve while you grow richer, and starting wars.  We( the rest of the world) can't allow that, because no matter what, their problems eventually affect us.  As has been stated, we are all interdependant of each other.

That "chain effect" might start, but it won't be because of our "meddling", it will be because of the problems already existing in the region.  In fact, without our intervention, several wars already would have erupted there. India and Pakistan for example.

I'm not saying that we don't make mistakes, we certainly have made them, but at least we are making the attempt to keep peace and stability in the world.  We don't manipulate other governments, we only ask them to follow the international rules. Countries need to be held accountable for their actions.

[Sardauker-Kirov]

So its not the meddling eh?

Like you said, you american's stopped nuclear testing, Bio weapon testing, Fighting with war's that doesn't go into the american business.

America:Illegal weapons are not allowed.

But yet they are making illegal weapons like Bio nuclear and other Warfare material and let me quess?

They are "allowed" to do it because they are the so called "Gods" Guardian. While they aren't.

America started manipulating other country's when the WW2 ended.

In short, America is doing thing's while other country's are forbidden to do it.

Other country's may only have 4 nukes while the American's has millions of them. America is not a Peacekeeping country, they must stop acting like god or some kind of guardian. They are a country just like every other country in the world. If they won't stop well, say hello to WW3.

Anyways this is my opinion. No offense.

[quoudam72]

Yes, Kirvo but finger pointing will not get the job done as the old worm has said. That is your opinion but the infromation you speak what have you based it apon does it really fit the bigger picture? We (global community) need to "meddle" our furture depends apon it. Humankind is on the verge of it's next step in the universe and in case the human race doesn't know it, it will take one hell of a group effort to make it a success.