Israel Issues

[Wolf]

As I said before it's easy to criticize someone else when you are not in his position.

You keep bandying that about as if--even if it were true, which it isn't--it would mean something. No, even if we weren't in your position, we could still criticize you for taking actions that our own histories have informed us are ill-considered and morally questionable. But as a white American, do you see me complaining about the fact that white Americans will become a plurality by mid-century? I'll admit that some do, and I'll admit further that they are not the kind of people I'd generally want to have a beer with. But by and large, my country has decided that diversity of origin and thought and multicultural acceptance are good things, with positive benefits. Our history has also taught us that attempts to preserve the dominance of one ethnic group over others breeds discord, violence, and long-standing inter-ethnic animosity. In short, it's bad. So, you know what, the truth is that I really am in your position, but I think the difference is that I welcome it, and I think many other Americans do, too, because we've come to the conclusion that it is a good thing. If you think it's a bad thing, you better have a really compelling reason for it (in hindsight, most Americans even felt that Japanese internment was wrong, and World War Two was generally a serious time for serious action, so consider that).

But, I don't think you do. In fact, I find it somewhat ironic that you talk about examples like this:

No country is on the bridge of losing its identity, when someday let's say 100 million Italians would like to immigrate to Thailand I can assure you that almost all Thai including the government would strongly resist.

...when that is exactly what the Jews/Israelis did to the Palestinians in the mid-20th century! How do you think Israel came into existence? So, you admit that it's okay for the "natives" to resist a demographic overwhelm, thereby justifying Israel in denying Palestinians fundamental rights of citizenship, but I take it you don't seem to think it would have been okay for the Palestinians to resist the demographic overwhelm of them by European Jews in the first place? That's a little hypocritical. To boil your position on this point down to its essence, it seems that you're saying that demographic overwhelms are wrong and should be fought against--that is, except, unless it's Israelis who are doing it. At least this is consistent with your other views. A silver lining in every cloud, apparently.

I repeat, I didn't say that we need to take some ethnic acts to preserve anything but also we don't need to take ethnic acts to do the opposite.

What does this even mean? If Palestinians breed and Israelis don't, then the Palestinians will be a majority-in-fact even if you deny them political rights, and even if Israel has taken no "ethnic acts to do the opposite." At what point does it become a gross human rights violation to deny political rights to a substantial portion of your population? When they become the majority? Even afterward? Dred Scott much?

It seems to me that if Israel does nothing in absolute terms, then it will be a country ruled by a minority of people who have all available political and civil rights, denying a majority of people of a different ethnic group most if not all political and civil rights. If that isn't a recipe for violence, I don't know what is. Even then, "doing nothing" can often subject you to liability: you are going to have to do something, and if giving Palestinians political rights is something you're not willing to do ("an ethnic act to do the opposite") because you're afraid of Israel "losing its identity," then you're going to have to face the larger problem of what to do when Palestinians are a majority-in-fact. You can't eliminate them (that irony must be obvious to you), so what are you going to do that isn't necessarily a gross human rights violation?

[Mahdi]

It is true Islam is a threat to all Western world due to the Islamic population growth. It is the obligation of the governments to stop this

Did I really just read that? 

[Dunenewt]

Emprworm??

[Andrew]

Did I really just read that? 

What exactly is incorrect about it? Look at France and other Euro countries where their populations have gotten larger and they want to have sharia law.

Hell there are some in Canada that want Sharia law.

Leo is correct, that if Jews/Palestinians merge, and one side ends up having majority because they breed faster (say Palestinians), what is to stop neighbouring Muslim countries from having a say in screwing the Jews over? It's a conspiracy!

For oversimplified example, see the movie idiocracy:

Whoever breeds fastest wins :P

[Edric O]

Whoever breeds fastest wins :P

Right, because, as we all know, children always follow the cultural values of their parents and grandparents without the slightest hint of protest or rebellion. :P

[leo]

It is true Islam is a threat to all Western world due to the Islamic population growth. It is the obligation of the governments to stop this not by racist behavior towards Arabs but through other measures. It is a pity that they fail to do this. For example here in Greece the new law for getting citizenship requires among others a good knowledge of the Greek language. Still IMO it is very loose. More prerequisites are needed.

The same could apply for Israel.

For time being enjoy this video:

No! We do not want such people. Either they get civilized or go home.

I really enjoyed leo's comment about millions of Greeks. My friend, didn't we built colonies in ancient Israel? Does Decapolis mean anything to you? Where would you be now if we didn't instill our culture in the minds of your forefathers? Certainly not a western country. Probably yet another theocratic nation of horror.

My friend, I took Greeks as an example with no special reason, I'm sorry if you were offended in any way by that.

[athanasios]

No offence! 8) - We have common roots.

[SandChigger]

Right, because, as we all know, children always follow the cultural values of their parents and grandparents without the slightest hint of protest or rebellion. :P

I'd say it probably happens a lot more frequently than you seem to want to believe.

What is it y'all's moldy book says? "Raise up a child in the way that he should go, and he will not depart from it when he is old." :D

[arnoldo]

Right, because, as we all know, children always follow the cultural values of their parents and grandparents without the slightest hint of protest or rebellion. :P

When there is lack of social stratification and room for social mobility the norms which prevailed by previous generations may be shed by latter generation.  In areas where there is great social inequality, limited resources, and poor economic outcomes an increase in population can be disastrous, and instead the new generation can become more radicalized than the previous one.

[SandChigger]

When there is lack of social stratification and room for social mobility the norms which prevailed by previous generations may be shed by latter generation.  In areas where there is great social inequality, limited resources, and poor economic outcomes an increase in population can be disastrous, and instead the new generation can become more radicalized than the previous one.

Mmmm ... did you lift that? It almost feels like it, but the "prevailed by" is ungrammatical. Lift and separate, reword & recombine, maybe?

[Dunenewt]

Right, because, as we all know, children always follow the cultural values of their parents and grandparents without the slightest hint of protest or rebellion. :P

Yes, as a love child of Margaret Thatcher and Reagan, you should know ;)

[arnoldo]

Mmmm ... did you lift that? It almost feels like it, but the "prevailed by" is ungrammatical. Lift and separate, reword & recombine, maybe?

Gee professor, ya caught me.  I lifted it from the following essay I stumbled across online. . .

. . . As previously mentioned the high fertility rate of the Palestinian population can be seen as a "revenge of the cradle" for losing all its wars to Israel. Based on a stable population model the Palestinians' medium fertility level will result in 38% of the population being under the age of 15. In contrast, if the Jewish fertility declines to a low fertility level only 15% of the population will be under 15 in the future (Weeks, 1994, p. 241 ). The increasingly young population of the Palestinians may create social and economic problems due to their volatile nature which was a major cause of the intifada (Palestinian uprising). Another factor for the Palestinians' explosive growth has been their declining mortality rate. Before the establishment of the State of Israel the death rate for the Palestinians was two to three times the rate of the Jewish population but recently the mortality gap has narrowed considerably (Weeks, 1994, pp. 174-175).

A consequence of the wars Israel has fought was that many Palestinians fled to Jordan. This country has an extremely high fertility rate with the women bearing an average of six children each so that the population could double every 19 years (Weeks, 1994, p. 134-35). By the late 1980s there was more than 1 million Palestinian refugees and their descendants in Jordan's East Bank (Held, 1989, p. 231). These Palestinian refugees may cause a problem for Israel if they ever wished to return to Israel. Ironically, by acquiring the occupied territories during the 1967 Six Day War the current 1.8 million Palestinian inhabitants in the occupied West Bank and the Gaza Strip threaten to destabilize Israel (Haberman, 1994, p. A, .

A precursor to the Six Day War was Syria's attempt to divert the Jordan River to Israel. Then IDF Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin's plan was implemented to bomb the water diversion project to secure the Jordan River flowing to Israel (Peres, 1995, p. 89). As a result of the war Israel captured the Gaza Strip from Egypt, the Golan Heights from Syria, and the West Bank from Jordan. More importantly, Israel captured Jerusalem which was under Gentile control since its destruction in A.D. 70. In these occupied territories there is a significant Jewish population living among the Palestinians. There are 125,000 Israelis in the West Bank and 5,000 in the Gaza Strip (Haberman, 1995, p. A, 9). In the Golan Heights there are 13,000 Jews living among 17,000 Arabs (Haberman, 1994, p. A, 1). Some of these settlers see the return of the occupied territories as an abomination and so an Israeli resorted to the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin to try to stop the peace process.

As difficult as the question of "land for peace" has been in the Middle East peace process so has the control of the water supply in the Middle East. Whether or not the occupied territories will ultimately be turned over to the Palestinians will in part depend upon the control of the groundwater aquifers that are in the occupied territories. It is estimated that 40% of the groundwater of Israel is in the occupied territories (Gleick, 1994, p. 11). Also as the population of the region continues to increase water will become increasingly scarce. A United Nations report states that the population of Israel, the Gaza Strip, and the West bank may reach 11.75 million by 2025 (Gleick, 1994, p. 15). Accordingly, the per-capita water availability by 2025 is expected to decrease in Israel from 461 m3/y per person (cubic meters per person per year) in 1990 to 265 m3/y per person in the year 2025. Hydrologists believe that having less than 500 m3/y puts a strain on societies and limits economic growth (Gleick, 1994, pp. 15-37). Since rivers are no respecters of national boundaries the only way to provide for and adequate supply of water for all persons of the Middle East will be for unilateral cooperation between the Middle Eastern nations.

A consequence of the increasing scarcity of water may force Israel to reduce its agricultural output due to its high consumption of water. Israel currently uses about 70% of its water for agriculture which produces only 4% of its gross national product (Stutz, 1994, p. 70). Proposals for alleviating the water shortage includes the building of a canal to the Dead Sea from the Mediterranean or Red Sea.4 The Dead Sea has been rapidly dropping in level due to the heavy

water usage of the Jordan River which flows into the Dead Sea. Because the Dead Sea is below sea level the water flowing from the canal could power hydroelectric and desalination plants (Glausiusz, 1994, p. 34). Shimon Peres' proposal to resolve the water crisis would be the creation of water pipelines across national boundaries. He envisions a regional "water bank" which would provide desalination, purification and distribution purposes. Peres feels such a water bank is necessary because, "[it is] the only way for our region to confront one of our greatest challenges: the advancing deserts that threaten to erode the meager reserves of arable land that must feed a constantly growing population" (Peres, 1995, p. 259).

Clearly the population issues facing Israel will require a united effort to overcome them. Israel could previously count on waves of immigrants to counterbalance the increasing Palestinian population. But the majority of the diaspora Jews are in the relative comfort and security of America and Europe and they seem unlikely to make the difficult journey to Israel. The Israeli government in the meantime is actively encouraging its women to have at least four children each (Weeks, 1994, p. 472). But perhaps any further increase in the population will merely exceed the region's carrying capacity. For example, as soon as the year 2000 the Jordan River may be unable to supply water for the growing population in the region (Weeks, 1994, p. 427). However, Israel is after all the Promised Land and its future is divinely ordained. One of the many promises made concerning the future of Israel can be found in the book of Ezekiel in which the Lord says, "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers" (Ezekiel 37:26).

Busted!  ;)

[Dante]

...You do know that Edric was being sarcastic, right?

[Dunenewt]

Yes, I was making a joke along the same theme...

[SandChigger]

Gee professor, ya caught me.  I lifted it from the following essay I stumbled across online. . .

Ah, flogging <a href="http://forum.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=62105#62105">that old paper</a> <b>again</b>? ::)

(You do know that after you use it once, you're supposed to flush, right?)

[Dunenewt]

Families fight 'racist' Israeli citizenship law.

BBC article published today.

[Dante]

UK expels Israeli diplomat

It's understood that a senior Mossad agent, not named but sometimes refered to as a diplomat in reports, has been asked to leave Britain following the use of forged British passports to assassinate Mahmoud al-Mabhouh, allegedly by Mossad agents. This occured a few days ago, but debate continues. It's one of the strongest signs of disapproval from a government yet. The last time this country took similar action was in the 80's, and took place without the same level of public announcement.

[Andrew]

Stop Evicting Palestinians from Jerusalem

In August, seven families—about 50 people, including 35 children—were forced out of their homes, and immediately replaced by eight families of Jewish Israelis, members of extremist settler groups.

The Palestinians have been living in tents across the street from their house ever since. Six other nearby families have received eviction notices.

I spoke with one of the evicted fathers, Fouad Ghawi, who had lived in the house since 1954, when he was 8. He and his family were Palestinian refugees from Jaffa during the 1948 war, and his father traded in his UN refugee card, which guaranteed him basic support, for the right to move into the house the UN Relief and Works Agency and Jordan were building on vacant land. In return for finishing the house, the Ghwai family would get the legal deed. Three generations of the Ghawi family had lived there ever since—until last August, when an Israeli court ordered them out. They had no deed because, he told me, “the Jordan government would not put it in our name until we had proper plumbing, and then the 1967 war broke out.’’ Jordan’s authority ended.

Aww how cute. Lived in the house for 56 years and then evicted and replaced with Israelis.

In the article it is nice to see Israelis protesting the evictions. Which shows it's not the Israeli people, just the government doing this.

[nemafakei]

Mm, that's not uncommon - nor is the resistance, there are some groups doing really good work on house demolitions.

As an aside, the article mentions "(The foreign ministry is headed by the far-right Avigdor Lieberman. This week, his deputy snubbed five US congressmen, including William Delahunt of Massachusetts, while Tzipi Livni, the opposition leader, warned

[arnoldo]

These pictures speak for themselves. . .

WARNING: THESE PHOTOS ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND NOT INTENDED FOR CHILDREN.

[Andrew]

Here's the text description at link so people actually know what it is they would see before clicking.

Photos of the murder of the Fogel family in the town of Itamar, north of Jerusalem, on March 11, 2011 by Arab terrorists.

WARNING: THESE PHOTOS ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND NOT INTENDED FOR CHILDREN.

These photos were released by the family. They have given full permission for their use in order to report on the horrific reality of murdering children and babies in their sleep, "simply because they are Jewish."

[athanasios]

Shocking. :-(

[ErasOmnius]

Yeah, and soon Israel will be surrounded by democratically elected governments that want to eliminate them, just like Hamas was elected by the Palestinians.

[athanasios]

Afro-Asian People's Democratic Islamic Congress: Gaza March 15 - HAMAS and FATAH join forces in cracking down on pro-democracy protesters calling for unity

[ErasOmnius]

Afro-Asian People's Democratic Islamic Congress: Gaza March 15 - HAMAS and FATAH join forces in cracking down on pro-democracy protesters calling for unity

Didn't see this one on CNN or on any TV network of The West.