Joseph Ratzinger - Pope Benedictus XVI

[Caid Ivik]

Black pope? Thanks, one was enough  ;D  Also, do not make short prejudices about Benedict. He is a tough rationalist, so he will surely spark a debate on theological and philosophical levels, which usually have much greater effects on doctrine than popular revolts like ie Luther. For altough John Paul was a mystician oriented more for masses, and in communication and "depth of faith" was much more powerful than previous ones, internal doctrines of Church did not change much since the Council, and many changes were somewhat softened by pope himself...

[Egeides]

I personally consider that Benedict had Joh Paul's confidence. But before going further, I would like to discuss this nazi thing.I think that a great majority of humans would not have done better than him: being bad at doing the job, unenthusiast and finding a way to get out of some kind of "compulsory service to [nazi] society" as soon as possible (from what I read). This is not to say that he couldn't have done better but really, was it actually better on the long term to resist one time and die instead of offering SOME resistance all along? Hard question which would ask me to know the situation better (historical and moral), and thus stays open. Of course, it would give a better IMAGE to "show off" by public resistance and get killed on the spot... very useful ::)

But other than this big parenthesis about Hitler youth and all that, I do see that he was trusted by John Paul II. I also see that having him a few years does not block access to a African/Asian/Latino pope just after; I see the election of a pope from these regions as a very positive aspect, and was looking forward to such an election. So, since I know little of the man himself, I will see how his "term" turns out...

"he was the first head of the inquisition seriously accusating some of its previous deeds"

Caid, could you develop more on that?

[Caid Ivik]

Hitlerjugend was in its core the same as catholic Scouts or communist Pioneers, just compulsory. I don't know what is so special on it... About that he revisited ie condemnation of Galilei. There was a good site with many of his writings and generally all about him, however since he was elected it is down. If it is for maintance or simply pope needs no special fanclub, I know not ;D

btw: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/20/pope.wednesday/index.html

[Mihail]

Nnng...

Kehh....

Ehhh...

Hmmm....

NO!

I'm sorry, I just can't resist. I really can't. My desire to share information that people don't know about has gotten too strong.

Check out THIS link. Turn up the volume.

[Kiyouta]

Hehehe, looks like it was made in a hurry. :P

[GUNWOUNDS]

Edrico talks about how communism is actually a good thing and that we americans are brainwashed to believe that it is evil..... However Benedict just made a statement saying that Pope John Paul II helped destroy two "totalitarian institutions"

[ordos45]

Yeah saw the unfortunate Darth Benedict thing.  He may be "God's Rottweiler", "The Pope's Enforcer", and "The Firefighter", but he deserves his chance.  As pointed out the Hitler Youth was compulsory, and I dunno about you all, but I read he did desert from the Nazi army later on. 

So let us give him a chance, and let us respect the fact he was chosen by the Conclave.  (And if one is Catholic and believes it, the Holy Spirit.)

[Caid Ivik]

Edrico talks about how communism is actually a good thing and that we americans are brainwashed to believe that it is evil..... However Benedict just made a statement saying that Pope John Paul II helped destroy two "totalitarian institutions"  Nazism and Communism.  So i guess americans arent the only ones brainwashed to despise communism.  If the Vatican despises communism (which is weird since they also despise materialism) then how can you expect a materialistic society to embrace communism?

Sorry to say Edrico ....communism-a-phobia reaches much farther than the USA.

Materialism is a core of all communist theories since Marx. It is also the point most criticized on it by Church.

[stefanhendriks]

afaik the church has nothing to do with politics. Communism or not, its something thats not up to the church to decide, but the people of <insert name> country.

[Egeides]

Caid, do you send your Slovakian boyscouts to use anti-air craft defending factories?... ;D

Stefan: It is the population which decides, but a religion's doctrine brings it to have a given moral which has an effect on politics. This part, morality, is a divided field and gets murky.

[Universal]

Hmm it looks like Catholics are now moving towards National Socialism  ;)

[Dude_Doc]

afaik the church has nothing to do with politics.

On the contrary, the church had everything to do with politics. "Thou shall not kill" and "Thou shall not steal", and so on. Yes, of course these have all been practiced in earlier times - but religion has always played a part in politics, believe it or not.

Another example is the banning of same-sex marriage and the problem of abortion in (mostly) the United States. This has everything to do with religion.

Communism or not, its something thats not up to the church to decide, but the people of <insert name> country.

Yes - nowadays it is more or less in the hands of the people. But other political parties do have such orders or morals that binds them closer to a religion.

[Acriku]

On the contrary, the church had everything to do with politics. "Thou shall not kill" and "Thou shall not steal", and so on. Yes, of course these have all been practiced in earlier times - but religion has always played a part in politics, believe it or not.

Another example is the banning of same-sex marriage and the problem of abortion in (mostly) the United States. This has everything to do with religion.

Yes - nowadays it is more or less in the hands of the people. But other political parties do have such orders or morals that binds them closer to a religion.

Whether the Church has anything to do with politics is not the real question, whether it should is the question.

[nemafakei]

"two "totalitarian institutions"  Nazism and Communism"

The communism he referred to was the Stalinist regime in Poland and the USSR, as you full well know. And Edric would applaud its fall. And John Paul II was hardly an advocate of capitalism.

The real mistake is made when you attack 'true' communism by assuming it is the same as (or indeed anything like) stalinism. As you should know full well by now.

[Anathema]

The catholic church has been political at the heart since its foundation, actually. I wouldn't be surprised if things like the holy sacraments and induldgences were thought up only to hold grip on the powerful.

Also, can someone please explain to me how John Paul contributed anything to the fall of communism/stalinism? I'm serious.

[Kiyouta]

The Catholic Church has done fuck all to help anyone in the past, and they will not help anyone in the future. You can preach 'social justice' and 'end to suffering' all you want, but words help no-one. They are a bunch of hypocrites and I think we should not be giving them, or their leader, all the attention they seem to be getting in recent weeks. They certainly haven't earned it. They are completely unaware of the real world we live in today, and the pope's election proves that. Sure there have been the Romeros and the Mother Teresas who deserve their name in history, but it is wrong to associate their extraodinary courage and values with the Catholic Church in general. It was them, the people, not the church that stood up for freedom and democracy.

[Anathema]

Take it easy, Kiyouto. Put down the keyboard :O

*backs away*

[Kiyouta]

:P

True though eh?

[Khan]

Very true, and well put... and it isn't even midnight...

[nampigai]

:P

True though eh?

yes....

[Egeides]

kiyouta: There were lots of people in the Catholic church, and the church is a structure for people to join in (as any organized religion has its structure). It is through this structure that people were influenced while other people were influenced by other structures, with other principles. People in the church are people, not all angels or saints. As such, they compare to other people. And we cannot say that people out of the church to which you compare them with are all angels or saints.

So I don't make the link between "the people" and "the angels". I have lots of people around me, of all kinds. Just as it is the case among Catholics (or whattever else). So I'd be careful with idealization (and un-humanation) of "the people" just as "the Church". In any case, if you cherry pick only the best ones or bad ones, you get what you get.

[bryorama]

Well he's supposed to be some tough church enforcer guy. They need this type of person to fend off gay people, abortions, condoms, and rock and roll. Really, the church doesn't need to change. Why did they stop castrating choir boys? They don't sound as good as they did way back when.

Also the death of a pope generates publicity. The church cant turn away free publicity to spread its religion.

He does look evil. :O

It's all in his eyes.

[nemafakei]

"Also, can someone please explain to me how John Paul contributed anything to the fall of communism/stalinism?"

I can't remember exactly, but I think the idea is he instigated an intervention by Mary which led to the fall of the USSR.

[Edric O]

Sorry to say Edrico ....communism-a-phobia reaches much farther than the USA.

Well of course it does! When did I ever say otherwise? ???

Edrico talks about how communism is actually a good thing and that we americans are brainwashed to believe that it is evil.....

"Brainwashed"? No. Misinformed? Yes. Most of what you hear about "communism" is true, except that it's true about stalinism rather than communism. And, of course, things are often exaggerated for propaganda purposes. You see, propaganda is rarely made up of outright lies - most of the time it consists of half-truths (presenting only the good things about your side and only the bad things about the other side).

However Benedict just made a statement saying that Pope John Paul II helped destroy two "totalitarian institutions"  Nazism and Communism.

Well that's wrong on 2 different levels. First, that second "totalitarian institution" is Stalinism, not Communism. Second, John Paul II played no role in the destruction of Nazism (he did oppose the Nazis, of course, but it was never within his power to do much against them). He did contribute to the fall of Stalinism, however, by supporting the Solidarinosc trade union in Poland.

If the Vatican despises communism (which is weird since they also despise materialism) then how can you expect a materialistic society to embrace communism?

The bad relations between the Vatican and the communist movement are a long story... they go back to the 19th century. Back then, the Catholic Church had much more power than it does today. And it wasn't just spiritual authority like today, but political power and immense material wealth. The Pope and the cardinals were among the richest and most powerful people on Earth. And the communists were fighting against the rich and powerful. You see the problem. The Church was very much interested in keeping its wealth and power. So the communists denounced it as corrupt and oppressive. In response, the Church denounced the communists as "evil".

Much has changed since then; the Church has been reformed, the Pope and the cardinals are no longer political leaders, they are no longer among the richest people on Earth, they are no longer corrupt, and they began to oppose capitalism because they finally realized how it opposes Christian teachings. But the Church and the communist movement have never held any "peace talks" to end their old conflict...

That's why I'm hoping for a Latin American Pope to be elected soon. Communists and Catholics have often stood together as allies against ultra-capitalist regimes and fascist dictators in that part of the world. When the communist Sandinistas came to power in Nicaragua after overthrowing the Somoza dictatorship in the 1980's, their government included 2 priests and a bishop.

[Caid Ivik]

In 19th century there was no true political Vatican. Since French conquered it to the era of Mussolini. Calling it either an ally or an enemy of marxist communist movement is not a good way to accurately explain our stance against it. Social problems were discussed in Rerum Novarum by Lev XIII. I would not count it, whether it has in its core marxist thoughts (as John Paul's revisit of that encyclic, Centesimus Annus, partly has), especially a call for technical social philosophy, read it by yourself to see the relation. So, spare us from your materiohistoric analysis of Church's teaching in last centuries  ;)