It is very pwrful combination

[pearlmen]

When Ordos play against atreidis, 1 on 1 .

In late game

Mass kobra(same amount of minos)+some deviator+some lazer(5~10)+huge sard elites with fremen sniper and some advensed carryall(for pick up mino)

Elite ordos players use well warrior. So my elites get to just meat against kobra n warrior.

Then Ordos best in late game huh? :)

Anyway that combination very strong against atr. How to beat that combo with your atreidis?

[leo]

lol u can make this kind of a combnation with any house, just for example instead of cobras u take minos which are better and instead of the deviator u take sonic tanks(which u can play without as well, it wont change much with this kind of a combination).

[Apollyon]

Yeah, sorry that's silly.  :P

[GUNWOUNDS]

yea the problem pearl is that in order to make a sizeable force of deviators your kobras production will suffer... unless you use the starport to order your deviators... but the atreides enemy will be using their starport to order more minos.

And kobras are always screwed because in late game vs mass minos they get killed due to the minos extended range and full salvo expending.

Trust me ... me and harkdawg settled this a long time ago.

[Apollyon]

Minos do not have extended range, as such. The problem of this misconception comes due to an emperor bug involving the guard range. The kobra will not fire automatically at units at the very outside of its guard range, much like turrets often don't. You can tell the kobra to fire on units, however, that are on this band of range and they will, but this micro costs time. Also, due to the immobile nature of the kobra, the minos have the opportunity to eliminate the kobra wall bit by bit using maximum force on a watered down force of kobras. In that way ATR does indeed have a slight advantage late-game, although the advantage is extremely slight when considering laser tanks and deviators.

[darkd3th]

usally if I play ordos in late game I build 8 lasers for every 1 kobra . and when I put it all together I just send in the kobras first to take the first salvo deploy them and fire on the infantry.

But while thats happening I have my lasers come in and try to kill the minos from a differnt direction .

[KALONY]

"Minos do not have extended range, as such. The problem of this misconception comes due to an emperor bug involving the guard range. The kobra will not fire automatically at units at the very outside of its guard range"

isnt it a good idea, to change this in ur new patch apo? or isnt it possible?

KALONY

[Apollyon]

"Minos do not have extended range, as such. The problem of this misconception comes due to an emperor bug involving the guard range. The kobra will not fire automatically at units at the very outside of its guard range"

isnt it a good idea, to change this in ur new patch apo? or isnt it possible?

KALONY

I can change it, but it would remove the ability for players with my patch to play with people who don't have it.  :-

[GUNWOUNDS]

. In that way ATR does indeed have a slight advantage late-game, although the advantage is extremely slight when considering laser tanks and deviators.

Yes but the problem is that

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ordos true power is in attacking atreides early and crippling them ... so that they can never achieve "Max production" .... if you can make the atreides poor early on and make yourself rich... then you can pump out 2 kobras for every 1 mino.. then you most certainly can win.

[Dunenewt]

Don't double post.

Inkvines and flame tanks are best against Minos when using Harkonnen, in combination that is.

[Apollyon]

Not really, they'd get massacred by sard elites and feydakin, or by bikes, or by regular sard, or sard elites on their own etc.

[Dunenewt]

Not with my tactis ;)

[Apollyon]

Put it this way:

I would massacre you with my sardaukar, or feydakin, or bikes.

If you want to test it out online just gimme a call.  :)

[Dunenewt]

*remembers what happened last time*

No thanks

*Goes back to Easy Defensive Computer*

[4feet]

Haven't played online (I'd like to), but it seems like a usual opinion that equally large ordos forces lose against atreides, so I just want to know more about that;

Gunwounds: "And kobras are always screwed because in late game vs mass minos they get killed due to the minos extended range and full salvo expending."

Mr Apollinax: "Minos do not have extended range, as such. The problem of this misconception comes due to an emperor bug involving the guard range. The kobra will not fire automatically at units at the very outside of its guard range, much like turrets often don't. You can tell the kobra to fire on units, however, that are on this band of range and they will, but this micro costs time."

So which unit shoots first, if the kobra is told to shoot before the mino gets in range (I haven't the game here now)?

Mr Apollinax: "Also, due to the immobile nature of the kobra, the minos have the opportunity to eliminate the kobra wall bit by bit using maximum force on a watered down force of kobras.

Here's how I picture what you are saying: The minos stop right outside the range of the cobra masses, though where there are any protrusions in the cobra wall, some minos charge. Would it not be possible to even the odds by having some backup undeployeds, to roll in next to the exposed kobras?

I should really like to see those big equally sized battles some time. If the minos are better, how much bigger must the kobra force be? 

Mr Apollinax: "In that way ATR does indeed have a slight advantage late-game, although the advantage is extremely slight when considering laser tanks and deviators."

Gunwounds: "Yes but the problem is that  mass subhouse units and infantry units can easily cancel this out.

mass reg sards or mass elites, or mass light inf , or mass kindjal  can easily frustrate the hell out of the ordos shielded hovercraft units.  Ensuring that the atreides keep their edge."

I don't see many of you oldbies talking alot about geese or sonics or atr APC either. I think I'd be able to use the ordos' hovercraft better than I could use any of the atr counterparts. But I guess not as a frontline in a huge force. Those battles would mostly be a pissing match between the artillery, and the other stuff thrown in to protect it from the other side's "other stuff"?

One thing that seems nice about the kobras is that the shells are evenly spaced out, it is less likely to waste shells on a dead target, or so it seems. Though the mino would get the first four (?) rounds off sooner I guess, destroying the target before it can retaliate or flee (which I think is mentioned in the first quote)?

How are they matched otherwise, in armor, average rof and firepower? Do I remember correctly those three are equal?

Gunwounds: "We would meet in center of map and i was like an unstoppable force.  The minos/elites/feds killed the kobras while they were deploying, the kindjal/inf/feds killed the lasers, and the elites/feds killed the deviators."

Would it not have been better to have some cobras already deployed instead of moving them under your guns first?

Edit: Are any of you playing slower than eight sometimes? Seems way too fast to get a good grip on the more detailed mechanics and learning microing quickly.

[GhostHunter]

Keep in mind that mobility is key in Emperor, especially with Ordos. The issue is that if you deploy you set a line up before hand (thus already having 'some' deployed) -- one which the Atreides player can out-range with mino fire (thus just becoming sitting ducks). The alternative, keeping in mind Ordos's advantage: speed and manuverability, is to be within equal range of your enemy for that to happen, but then, as previously stated, the Kobras have to get into position and deploy - with a mass mino horde several would have already been slaughtered - losing any advantage of direct combat.

[4feet]

According to elpollonox, mino's do not have a longer range, just that its autofire reacts as soon as it is in range. Thus if you tell the kobra to fire upon the approaching mino they have the same range. That's how I interpreted his statement.

Like I said I don't have the game here, but if this is not some modded rules.ini that I have here, these are comparison numbers:

Mino,Kobra

cost 13k,12k

buildtime same

size 2,3 :are these tiles? does it mean you can bunch minos closer, or fit more inf between them?

speed=3,5 (I think)

What does "mech speed=2" mean?

turnrate 0.15,0.175

health 2500,3000

what does "viewrange = 4,8,infrock mean?"

hitslowdown amount (%) 50,75

what does "roofheight=44" mean?

reload count: mino=120, kobra=30 Guess this means their ROF is the same on average.

range (16) and damage (600) and blast radius seem to be determined by the attributes of the projectile (kobraHowitzer_B), which is the same for both. There is also an attribute called "friendlyDamageAmount = 50", does this mean friendly units only take half the damage ("clever explosives")?

It gets even more complicated: The bullet has a warhead (Howitzer_W), which attributes determine the effectivenes versus different protection (armor classes). Light=70(%?) Medium=50 Heavy=30.

If I understood these rules correctly, then the amount of shots required for a cobra/mino to kill a mino is: Armor/(damage*(armor modifyer/100)) or 2500/(600*(30/100))=14 shots. Is this correct?

mino gets easier upgrades and

LVL1:armor*2=5000

dmg*2=1200

LVL2:armor*4=10.000

LVL3:dmg*4=2400

kobra

LVL1:armor*2=6000

LVL2:dmg*2=1200

LVL3:dmg*4=2400

speed=12 (same as lastanks?!!!)

Looks pretty well balanced to me on the paper (except for the autofire glitch); Ordos choose the battleground with their speed, and minos can fire immediately after they get into range. When engaged, the minos can slowly rally toward an exposed part of the kobra horde, whereas the cobras can relocate quicker for backup to that area. The mino fires round #2,3 and 4 quicker than cobra, but might waste more rounds because of that? I think once there are multiple guns flinging from both sides it does not matter which turret you use. In practice however it might be different?

[GhostHunter]

Say you picked the battlefield as Ordos. You deploy your group of kobras to an oncoming mino horde. You're screwed - even if you have one's that aren't deployed in reserve. The thing is, that once you deploy a group they don't all form a straight line. Hence some will be out of range. So in order to meet this mino threat you'd have to un-deploy the backlancing Kobras and move them forward, and re-deploy -- sound a little time consuming? It is. Secondly, with the inmobility thing - the mino MOVES into position to attack, that's also a huge advantage as where the Kobra might be incapable of hitting something (even if you tell it to fire), the mino actually moves into the spot it actually can attack and fires.

Another thing on paper is the fact that the mino's splash damage (due to firing four rounds) is intense. The Kobra obviously takes four shots to equal one salvo from the mino, and by this time the forces could have been moved or more spread apart - thus not taking the same amount of splash damage.

[alchemi2]

In real terms as both appllo and guns has said atr has the slight advantage remember they are talking about a mass of COMBINED units, so in a head to head clash of equal skill players then Atr will win.

I've had the privilage of watching this happen on a few occassions but if the players skills are mismatch then the Ordos can own the Atr by clever micro.

If you have never experienced online play it is hard to comment on these types of strats, I can hand the computer it butt with all houses but i would rarely dare to play ordos or Atr in online games as my micro often sucks (ask anyone)and you definately need good micro skill with both Atr and Ords in online games.

[erjin999]

Yeah, the whole point is that 10 minos should whoop 10 kobras as the minos will form a nice semicirle around the kobras and the kobras will only make a jagged line, and once some start dying (minos/kobras) the minos will eventually all move to another kobra and thus have the remaining, say 6, minos all firing on those kobras still in range.

It means many minos will fire on only a few if not one kobra.

[Harkdawg]

Atreides will have an edge over Ordos due to Mino fireing range, thats about it.

Ofcourse this wont mean immediately that an Ordos will lose, it boils down to players and other tactics they can come up with, but yes,

Atreides > Ordos

Ordos > Harkonnen

Harkonnen > Atreides

By Default they have edge

[mordusxxx]

ok the key to long game battles vs atr with ordos goes as this, you need to build all the units you guys have been talking about, but u need to attack the spice, rush in his base and worm, without that the production of minos are going to be to much, ive played against guns while he marched fifty minos to my base, lasers cant stop em, adv carrys lose to the elite sards, and kobras get owned, but in turn, it does depend on the player, me and kalem, played, him atr me ordos, i did everything i was supposed to, kobras, lasers dust feds elites and deviators, i would rush laser dust and elites in and auto attack maybe four minos with my deviators, after i already engaged in battle, thus letting me use his minos and moving my kobras in, also by me taking out his spare harvs not guarded by kindjal and rushing in lasers, yes to get slaughtered in his base but also to fight

[thesnake]

very mutch true.. what i discoverd is that the best thing to do against the mino makers is to make fast untis and attak the erias that are not protected by minos,, whtich is uslay the spice or the base.. that way the mino master will start to turn his minos in around circels trying to save his day...and the cost  will breack his back..