Chaos_Storm

Additional points: 1> Regeneration - don't be afraid to run and hide to heal, then come back 2> Micromanagement - Ordos vehicles need a lot of attention for maximum effectiveness, especially the Laser Tank 3> Veterancy - Ordos vehicles have a relatively easy time getting veterancy, and they need it! 4> Rally points - have secure positions for your vehicles to run and hide in. Preferably use Kobras and a mix of infantry. 5> Saboteurs - don't be afraid to use them. They can be devastating if they pull that cord at the correct moment. Highly effective at quickly destroying windtrap farms. 6> Have engineers around handy. They can be used for defence as well as capturing buildings. 7> Dig dust scouts to amass a large force without being spotted. 8> Always use scouts to check out a spot before you set up your formation there. Keep those scouts around that formation and your base to watch for Infiltrators and Fremen. 9> Also watch out for Projections of Laser weapons - these are expendable to the enemy yet can wipe out shielded formations effortlessly. Get your scouts close to them to remove this threat. Anything else that I've missed?

Deviate the Mino. A Deviator is quite tough - it can stand a Missilte tank salvo. Just remember that you need to let it regenerate for ages afterwards due to its much higher max health and shields. The Mino is too slow to move out of the way of a Deviator rocket. PROVIDED THEY DON'T GET SHOT AT, lots of AA troopers/Sardaukar Elites can take down a single Mino quickly. You'll need a long distraction though and hope that a human player does not notice the infantry. Don't use this tactic unless you are desperate. 2,3 NIAB tanks can take down 1 Mino in a single salvo. NIAB tanks can take a huge amount of punishment from Mino fire. With Laser tanks, be more careful with your movements as you will die quickly. Train up a small (6?) group of Laser tanks to gain veterancy to make it easier - especially when they get the range bonus.

Also note are slow - both in moving and firing. AA mines do massive damage very quickly at the cost of self-destruction. AA mines are air units so don't need to worry about terrain or worms. True it's unwise to have a bunch of AA mines sitting around doing nothing as a suicide aircraft will take them all down with it. A few AA mines can boost your air defences though.

Guild Makers just might be the one of the most micromanagement demanding unit. Their shooting animation is WRONG as that electricity does not represent the area of attack. It's better if you vision a Maker shooting a shell that instantly arrives at its target and has HUGE splash damage. That's why Maker groups must never fire on targets too close to them. It might be better to force fire often with large Maker groups, just so that you know where they are shooting. Makers are excellent at taking down small buildings - i.e. Windtraps and walls. Other structures fall quickly too if packed together. Just try force firing near the a tight group of buildings instead of actually attacking a single target. Be sure to have repair vehicles near Makers and keep an eye on them. They can be useful against the AI, don't know how good they'd be online though.

I thought they pretty much had the same range.

Also note - enemy carryalls will not pick up a harvester if you assign your Adv. Carryall to pick it up, even if it has to reach it from the other side of the map.

If I really want to rush someone and we started with 30000 and no units (preferably with knowledge of where their base is as well - e.g. 2v2 games on 4 player maps), I'd build 3 factories (building an extra windtrap for power) before anything else and pump out vehicles really quickly. I'd get an early MCV, 2 refineries and an Outpost to follow up. If I didn't know where my enemy was, I'd send Dust Scouts to possible base locations to find them - they may not have the visibility of a Scout but they are fast and it's harder to kill them. Because the Dust Scouts would be coming out so quickly, I can afford to do this. Then it's time for the old Dust Scout and Laser Tank rush (but bigger and/or earlier). Alternatively, I could get APCs and AA troopers, load the troopers in the APCs and rush them to enemy spice fields whilst my Dust Scouts kill all resistance at the spice and then lay siege to prevent reinforcements from coming (by staying outside, you get the advantage of having space to attack anything coming out from many sides). Don't forget to build that 2nd Construction Yard early or you'll be behind in building up your base. 3 (or even 4) refineries are recommended if your rush failes. You will be stretched because of the sheer speed at which vehicles and structures will be built as well as having to command your rush.

I've just realised a flaw with Guild Makers. Their shooting animation is misleading. The damage area is NOT the electric field - that only shows the maximum range of the Makers. It helps if you imagine the Maker firing some sort of instant hit cannon that has a HUGE splash damage area. Try this: 1> Get a Maker and some expendable infantry as targets. 2> Put the infantry in a single line parallel to the direction the Maker is facing, starting with right in front of the Maker and trailing off just beyond the Maker's range. 3> Tell the Maker to force fire on the ground right next to the closest infantry. 4> Rebuild the line of infantry targets. 5> Tell the Maker to force fire at its maximum range. You will realise that infantry die in the vicinity of where you force fired. The electric field you see does not kill the infantry - you can kill beyond it. I've come to realise that though they are incredibly weak and slow for their price, they have a deadly weapon. Try having a group (about 5) of Makers fire on Structures - Windtraps and Walls get blown away instantly in a wide area. I've realised that Makers are brilliant demolishers with their wide area of effective damage. They are good against infantry too and light vehicles if enough shoot at the same time. You need to micromanage them heavily if you don't want a large group of Makers being destroyed by their own fire. If the target moves too close to the Makers, lots of them will die. So I suggest you try using them with force fire orders (don't forget to cancel that order sometime!). You must protect them from vehicles, aircraft, Kindjal and Mortar though - NIAB tanks are excellent for the vehicles but you'll have to rely on non-Guild units to take care of the other threats. And they ought to change that shooting animation!

I'm not saying Harkonnen infantry are not effective. I love their light infantry, flamers can wipe out lots of Anti-Vehicle infantry rapidly and Troopers are a cheap way of getting Anti-Air power. But they're all so slow, especially the flamer and there is no real long range unit. The trooper fires too slowly and has too short a range to fight vehicle groups (similar with AA troopers) without sustaining heavy casualties (e.g. being run over). I suppose it's just me that's not suited to commanding Harkonnen infantry very well. I can have mixed infantry cells on infantry rock that can survive quite a bit with Ordos and Atreides, but with Harkonnen I sustain too many casualties. Perhaps I haven't found the right way of using Harkonnen infantry.

Is it possible to summon more than 1 worm at a time to ride?

Woa, that was long. Put simply, try to survive the rush stage of the game so that you can gain experience against humans in the later stages. With experience, you'll become better and start having fun at winning with better planning and/or micromanaging.

With scouts, wait until they are cloaked. Then when you select them and move the cursor to give them the order to move, when the cursor is close enough, the cursor will change to have some white arrows as well. This means the scout can get there without revealing himself (provided he takes the shortest route possible). Eventually you'll get a sense of distance but the cursor really does help. Hmm, my build order? I don't really stick to one - I do whatever I feel I want to do. Usually it starts with something like these 2 (assuming you start with 30000): 1> Windtrap, Barracks, Factory, Factory, Windtrap, Outpost, Refinery, Windtrap, Refinery... 2> Factory, Barracks, Windtrap, Outpost, Factory, Refinery, Barracks, Windtrap, Refinery... I just like having an early Outpost to go with early scouts. You may wish to build other things first. The Build order you posted is good for games starting with about 15000, but with 30000, you're building the refineries too quickly. I may be wrong, but I prefer spending until my money is down to about 12000, then I worry about money. To stop that rush without rushing, you'll have to be either Atreides or Ordos. I don't know about Harkonnen if you go for an early 2nd, even 3rd Factory (then a refinery before the barracks as you'll be spending money so quickly). Use the splash damage, artillery units - Kindjal, Mortar, Minos, Kobras. Early 2nd Barracks and/or Factories should help you build enough of these units to stop a rush. Don't forget to guard your spice from a rush as well! Artillery should pound light vehicles (Sand bikes, Dust scouts, Buzzsaws) very quickly if they have too many and aren't moving them around much (you can't when rushing). Either that or counter rush, but don't take that rush to his base. Instead, target the Harvesters then continue developing as normal, except he will be slowed down a bit. After the Early game, it's time to start thinking - sub-house structures? More Factories and Barracks? Go for Hangars, Starport and Palace(s)? Generally, you'll be trying to control the spice and protect your base in the Mid/Late game. If you are going for 3+ Factories, then think about a 3rd refinery. If you then have 2 Hangars, some sub-house structures and 3~4 Barracks as well, get a 4th refinery and build some extra harvesters and carryalls. Build units generally so that when you need something, it's there and not waiting to be built. If space is limited, you do need to make a decision on either lots of low-tech units or some high-tech units (i.e. Hangar and Starport units). Then you need to build sustainable defences for your base and your spice fields. Harass the enemy a bit so that their forces/attacks don't grow out of hand. Then you need to make the decision to expand or to attack full-scale with what you've amassed. To expand, secure that place with some units first, then send the MCV, preferably along a route that you can easily defend. Then you'll need some good defences for that expansion - preferably as much as your first base so that you have somewhere to run away to if that gets destroyed. Build extra refineries as you feel necessary. If you expand successfully, you'll have a huge advantage with extra money, building facilities, room to maneouvre, potentially several palaces (this speeds up superweapons a lot until you get to about the 5th palace) and an extra life. Try starting with Atreides - you don't need as much micromanagement with their units and they are versatile. Once you get a feel for the game, think about Ordos and Harkonnen. They require a different psychology to win - Ordos need more micromanagement to put speed and regeneration to work, Harkonnen need micromanagement for combined arms. But with any house, you need to use space wisely, guard your spice, control the map, know your enemy and bring about favourable fights, removing counters for followup units (e.g. Minotauruses versus enemy Snipers, then Light Infantry/Snipers against their Kindjal). The best players are microing macroers. Meaning they know how to tactically win fights and strategically win the battle. Tactics is about using the right units in the right place in the right formation to beat the enemy group. Strategy is about spice economy, building space economy, building and bringing enough reinforcements, predicting how enemy forces will move/react and deciding whether you want to control the majority of the map to pressurise him and then kill him, or ambush him, perhaps with an air drop followed up by a conventional attack from his front door (which should have less units defending if your air drop was successful). Good luck Dezertfish, I hope you get a victory through strategy and tactics soon.

I'll say one thing in favour of Atreides Light Infantry: Speed. Harkonnens keep up their tradition of being slow even in their infantry and a lack of an APC. It is so annoying that Harkonnen don't have any long range infantry. I guess its their attitude: Harkonnen: Go in and kill them first before they kill you. >:( Ordos: Terminate cost effectively. :( Atreides: Hit them before they get too close. ;)

The worm's size is deceptive.

Harkonnen seem to have gone for machines than men - e.g. the ADP is more versatile than the AA mine or the Air Drone. They don't have an APC which says something about their attitude towards infantry (thinking they are worthless, I don't blame them with so many infantry genocide weapons). Instead, they have an arsenal of vehicles that need combined arms to cover for their weaknesses - meaning they'll need space and micromanagement, i.e. suited to meeting the enemy in no-man's land rather than in the base. I'd say the Harkonnen either need some way of repairing vehicles more easily (maybe make regeneration available at Lv1, or give a repair pad, or let Engineers be able to repair slowly - made more expensive though); or they need to do something for infantry. Maybe a heavily armed and armoured (yet slow) APC that infantry can take shelter in, or letting infantry be better (I must say if the Harkonnen Light Infantry had more health, it would be the ultimate versatile unit, though slow). The Atreides have the Kindjal for making quick work of vehicles (instant shooting with more range, as opposed to a Trooper locking onto the target and the rocket actually reaching the target) and the Ordos have Mortar to help against large rushes. The Harkonnen don't have any long-range infantry.

Atreides seem to rely much more on long-range fighting. Look at their units: Sniper, Kindjal, Mongoose, Minotaurus. Long range units for all types of targets. The Stealth APC is also deadly, not only for transporting infantry (esp Engineers) covertly, but for acting like a short range Fremen Warrior that won't die to dedicated Anti-Infantry weapons. The repair vehicle is essential for long term survival. The main battle vehicles - Mongoose and Minotaurus, are slow so the repair vehicle can quickly catch up with them. It can be cumbersome though but you need to live with that. Ordos rely on speed, regeneration and using the enemy. The Laser Tank and Dust Scout emblem the 1st 2 points, Deviators and Chaos Lightning embody the latter point. Their infantry is also quite good when used properly - Chemical Troopers (cost effective Anti-Infantry, also surprisingly effective against large structures in numbers), AA Troopers, Mortar, Saboteur. Harkonnen rely on brute force and genocide weaponary (Flamethrower Infantry, Buzzsaw, Flametank, Inkvine, Devastator, Death Hand - all are highly efficient infantry genociders). Look at their version of the Ornithopter, the Gunship. Perfect for amassing in large numbers and flying in to destroy Construction Yards, Factories, Starports and other essential structures, regardless of casualties. Harkonnen need combined arms though, unlike Atreides where units are versatile.

Snipers are faster to build, have more range, don't need to uncloak to shoot (except when they get to Lv3 - they get camouflage then, like scouts) and learn regeneration at Lv2. Fremen Warriors have permanent stealth (except when shooting), is ready to move after shooting much faster, reload much faster, learn regeneration at Lv3. Which to build depends on what else you want to build. If you want Fedaykin but need to kill some infantry fast, go for scouts. If you're busy training Engineers and Kindjal, train Warriors. I prefer Warriors. Not being stealthed has its advantages too as a decoy - place some Snipers on infantry rock, enemy sends e.g. Flame tanks to remove the threat, Fedaykin uncloak and ambush the Anti-Infantry vehicles (hopefully without dying as well). As for who would win in a 1v1, it depends which way round the Sniper is facing. Both die with 1 shot, but the time it takes for the Fremen Warrior to uncloak before shooting is enough time for a Sniper facing it to shoot and kill it before being shot. If the Fremen Warrior shoots from behind, the time it takes for the Sniper to turn around and shoot is longer than a Warrior uncloaking and killing it.

I'm usually content with 5 palaces if I can get that much space. Usually this means expanding to a secondary base - which means you need a lot more defence. Do you have the time and resources to make a fully defended base a second time in the Late Game? Also note that Chaos Lightning takes the longest out of the 3 Superweapons to charge up - 6220 game ticks. Death Hand is around 5100~5200 and Hawk Strike is in the 4000s (check in rules.txt). NB Shouldn't this post be in the Ordos section?

Yes, without scouts, that force would suffer badly under Fedaykins and Infiltrators. The APCs (if cloaked) would probably kill the Fedaykins presuming your enemy didn't realise they were there, but with lots of Fedaykins, the Minos would be destroyed (perhaps taking some Fedaykins with them) and then that formation would go down. If those APCs unloaded their infantry cargo before the fight, then it's a different story, but I'd still recommend having a few scouts around. Use the Formation Move (J button whilst left-click) to make everything (scouts included) move at the same speed (of the slowest unit in the formation). 4 Ornithopters... Why not 8? 8 make a complete circle when hovering (more than 8 and some will just hover above and not attack). Other than that, it's a well balanced force that could take on anything up to medium size groups, provided you can load/unload APCs quickly enough. I seem to have problems with unloading - sometimes the infantry can't get out because another APC nearby is where it wants to go out but that APC is also stuck trying to unload. That bug should be fixed so that infantry can get out in any direction that's free.

Hmm, I don't see that shadow with my own burrowed Dust Scouts - with or without enough power. Turning the Dust Scouts' Guard order off lets it stay dug in even when enemies pass by. I don't know if they emerge if they get hit (e.g. splash damage from Mino, enemy force fires because he/she saw you dig in). Nice way to build up a large Dust Scout force without being seen - don't know if such a force would be useful in Late Game though...

The AI (esp. Hard) can stretch you if you give it a chance. In a Skirmish with 2 AI, it is challenging if both AI fight you because you are in the middle. Overlook the AI weaknesses and it can play well, e.g. not defending Harvesters, not defending 1 side of the base, sometimes not using correct and/or enough units, not having scouts placed to detect cloaked units. But then again, these are mistakes newbies make as well!

Light infantry en masse are wonderful against Light Vehicles (that can't run over) and most other infantry (e.g. don't use against lots of Mortar/Sardaukar/Flamethrowers/Chemical Troopers). It's surprising how vehicles can succomb to a hail of sub-machinegun bullets. Light infantry are cheap and very quick to build so casualties can easily be replaced (if you remember to do so - hotkeying a Barracks and using rally points can help enormously as this makes all units coming out of that Barracks automatically respond to the hotkey). But training them up to Elite is quite hard as they die so fast if you're not careful. According to the rules.txt file, a single Light Infantry soldier would have to kill 10 enemy infantry or 7 Light vehicles to reach Lv3. Knowing that it is almost impossible to make a single Light Infantry soldier do this without losing him, you have to rely on groups of infantry, meaning lots more to kill for a single Lv3 to turn up. I suppose you could group Lv1 and Lv2 soldiers separately when they get their promotion and train them up as a group later. It is easy to get single promotions of soldiers but going from Lv2 to Lv3 takes much longer. What I want to know is why is the Harkonnen Light infantry are so much better than the Atreides Light infantry? Atreides has the more expensive counterpart, yet a single Harkonnen Light infantry soldier could probably take on 2 Atreides soldiers and survive. Harkonnen soldiers finish shooting faster, can move almost immediately after shooting (time to aim the rifle away) and reload immediately (that rifle goes back up to shoot again as soon as it goes down). Atreides soldiers, like Sardaukar, empty a magazine, fit another one, then are ready to move whilst they rearm the rifle to shoot again a short while later. Why such difference?

Worm Riding tip: Worm riders are the worst unit at turning around sharply. If you try to do a sharp U-turn, it will go mad and the green 'move to' line will change direction rapidly. It takes ages of constant clicking to get a Worm to turn sharply so steer gently and don't try to go back for a target you just missed - find others then come back. And watch out for Sonic tanks/enemy Fedaykin - Worm riders die quickly to resonance weapons. They can plough through just about anything else though (except I guess, a wall of Devastators and Missile tanks, though experience hasn't confirmed/disproven this yet).

You don't need many Guild units to be effective. NIAB tanks are more deadly as hunter-killer groups. They are more elusive than Laser tanks because of their superior armour, similar (hover) speed and teleportation. The Devastator is the only vehicle that can survive 3 NIAB blasts (dying on the 4th one). Against infantry, Guild Maker support is a deterrant/decoy that can be more useful if you have Repair Vehicles to repair them (weird that - repairing a biological unit). You can be fairly certain that your own infantry will not meet any enemy close/medium range, Anti-Infantry infantry. Makers can also do substancial damage against light/medium vehicles too. But like any unit, on its own it's as good as dead. You might rate Guild as 2nd least useful but that's relative and doesn't mean they are useless period.

Air transport of 4~6 Devastators to your enemy's base is such a pain to him/her that you can be sure to get a response big enough to allow you to make a 2nd intention attack. Missile tanks and Inkvine can both shoot over cliffs so you can make a foothold in his/her base where you can land. ADPs can be used to further strengthen that foothold and if need be, the noise of a large Gunship strike is sure to attract the attention of mobile enemy AA (slow/stationary AA should either be shooting at those Gunships or dead due to Inkvine/Missile tanks). Devastators are slow and attract worms, but with Advanced Carryalls, you bypass those problems. Placing them near key structures when landing adds to their threat as the slower a Devastator's health is going down, the better you can time its reactor to blow up (provided you're watching). There's a huge psychological element to a Devastator group landing as well as the fact that 6 Devastators can rip through key structures rapidly. And don't forget that you have the option of taking those Devastators back to reuse another time if you still have those Adv. Carryalls nearby and there is no danger to them - don't try to achieve too much with too little.