Religion

[quoudam72]

First with Lucifer/Satan and this you need to remember was not created like men, mankind was created differently from the angels. The angels are one sort of being while mankind is another sort of being. There is no contradiction in what is being said about Lucifer being expelled from God's presence. There was a war in heaven and Lucifer and his legion were casted out. Yes Lucifer had/has greed he is an enity/being.

As far as the athiestism goes it is your choice. Look at part of what you wrote........loving life and the earth.........if you can believe that then you already know that there are higer forces (beings) than mankind. Not to say that you believe in God but you know that there is something alot greater than mankind in the universe. My point to you Acriku is that with that statement you signal that you believe in something even if you don't call it by a certain name.

We are discussing a complex subject that quite frankly is over some peoples head.

[Edric O]

GOD, how can you people be so ignorant of history?? Usul, the Holy Roman Empire was created by Otto I in 962 AD. THAT'S 500 YEARS AFTER THE FALL OF ROME!!!!!!!!!!

Evil exists because some creatures (humans and angels) decided to exercise their free will and disobey God.

Lucifer didn't leave heaven. He was exiled after trying to be God. Lucifer wanted to be more powerful than God, that was his sin.

UsulSK, do you understand what TOTAL DEATH means? It's not like some sort of deep sleep, it's non-existence! It's worse than hell, it's worse than anything that could possibly happen to you! God would never do that to anyone, except maybe Satan. Total death is THE WORST form of punishement ever possible.

As for Christians having totally different values, notice that the differences are minor and they don't come from the Bible, but from political propaganda. Many american christians agree with the atrocity of capital punishement because they've been indoctrinated.

UsulSK, if God lets everyone into heaven He has two choices:

1. Let heaven degenerate into something as bad as Earth is.

2. Remove free will, which is NOT what He intended when He created us.

Acriku, I said HUMANS can't sin in heaven. Lucifer is an ANGEL.

How many times do I have to tell you that there was NO SUCH THING AS TIME before Creation? Considering that, both the Big Bang and Creation are equally possible. In fact, if you look at it, they're very similar:

1. Let there be light - There was an "explosion" that created a microscopic sphere of pure energy (ya know, "light"... "energy"... about the same as far as primitive people are concerned)

2. God separated light from darkness - A wonderful fit! After the Big Bang, several regions in the Universe cooled much more than others, so the Universe was no longer homogenous. There were "warm" and "cold" areas.

Why do you assume that evolution contradicts Christianity? I know evolution happens. So what? How does that mean there is no God? All it means is that there's a POSSIBILITY that there MIGHT be no God.

Let's take a look at atheism - Atheists don't believe that any higher power exists. They believe that mankind can and should be completelly independent. They think we are our own masters. They think we are God... Just like Lucifer. Can't you see how many similarities exist between modern atheism and the "philosophy" of Lucifer, written in the Bible thousands of years before atheism appeared?

Atheists, you DO serve Lucifer. You just don't know it, but you think exactly like him.

P.S. Some people here have serious misconceptions about the Big Bang. Maybe it's time for one of Edric O's science lectures?

*everybody runs out*

[quoudam72]

*taunting those who run away*

Come back why do run from that, that which you do not know? Your ignorance was like fire but now it will be doused with the fluidity of intelligence.

[UsulSK]

> UsulSK, if God lets everyone into heaven He has two

> choices:

>1. Let heaven degenerate into something as bad as

>Earth is.

No, because you said that theres no temptation in heaven.  So even "bad" people wouldnt be tempted.  And Im sure, "good" loving christians can forgive the sinners and welcome them.

>2. Remove free will, which is NOT what He

>intended when He created us.

Didnt you say that free will is limited in heaven?  

So thats the way it is:  Choose to be "good" (that means loose your individuality and be uniform to the bible) or go to hell.  I dont call that free will.  If I would be sure that there is something like hell, OF COURSE I would turn into a christian right away, even I wouldnt like to, just in order to not suffer any pain.  But that wouldnt be me, that wouldnt be free will, and that just would suck big time.

[UsulSK]

> As far as the athiestism goes it is your choice. Look at

> part of what you wrote........loving life and the

> earth.........if you can believe that then you already

> know that there are higer forces (beings) than

> mankind.

Its called "laws of nature" and I learn some of them in physics right now.  Wont find them in the bible.

>We are discussing a complex subject that quite frankly

>is over some peoples head.

And I guess you are the one who knows it better then we do, right?

[UsulSK]

> Evil exists because some creatures (humans and

> angels) decided to exercise their free will and disobey

> God.

So that would mean that there IS free will in heaven.  And that would mean, that you CAN sin in heaven.  And that would mean, that you can be thrown to hell anytime.  And that would mean that the earth has no purpose at all.

[UsulSK]

>Total death is THE WORST form of punishement ever

>possible.

So, then I may choose it?  Because I would.  Pain sucks.

>As for Christians having totally different values, notice

>that the differences are minor and they don't come

>from the Bible, but from political propaganda.  Many

>american christians agree with the atrocity of capital

>punishement because they've been indoctrinated.

Well, IM SURE that the amerians who are in favor of the capital punishment wouldn agree to you and I dont know if you just can call it "political propaganda", because it doesnt fit to your point of view.

[UsulSK]

>Let's take a look at atheism - Atheists don't believe

>that any higher power exists.

Wrong, they dont believe in god.  Thats the correct definition of atheists.  Look it up in a dictionary!  Doesnt say anything about ghosts or aliens.  And I would call the laws of nature also a higher power.

>They believe that mankind can and should be >completelly independent.

In the borders of the philosophy, that each atheist choose.  I, for my side, go with Satre.  Other atheists may have other philosopies.  Atheism is no religion, that means that they are NOT uniform.

>They think we are our own masters.

Some think that that the character of people is completely determined by the genes.  Other say they are completely determined by their social circumstances.  Other may say that each one is completly free.  Again, atheism is not based upon a single philosophy!

>They think we are God... Just like Lucifer.

If you define god as "almighty and he knows everything", then we KNOW that we are not god and can never be god.  It would be completly boring anyway to know everything, because it already says in DUNE (the God Emperor), that the fun of living is made of surprises.

>Can't you see how many similarities exist between

>modern atheism and the "philosophy" of Lucifer,

>written in the Bible thousands of years before atheism

>appeared?

No, because I showed you were you have been wrong.  Dont just assume, that all atheist are alike.  They re not!  But christians are!  They have to be, because otherwise, they would act differently on certain matters, but there can only be one right way, if you assume that there is a god and a masterplan of god and that the bible tolds you how one should behave.  There is no atheist bible!  So there are no rules!  Atheist, may, or may not choose their own rules, which may be egoistic (Existentialism), humane (communism, which was based on the love for all people and therefore failed completly), or any other kind.  

Atheists, you DO serve Lucifer. You just don't know it, but you think exactly like him.

[UsulSK]

Oops, forgot about that last sentence:

>Atheists, you DO serve Lucifer. You just don't know it,

>but you think exactly like him.  

Well, see above.  If to atheists are different, and you cant deny that, then they can not both be exactly like another person, in your case Lucifer.  An atheist who believes in sience, anotherone who believes in communism and anotherone who believes in anarchy ARE NOT ALIKE!

[exatreide]

How Dare U call atheists minions of lucifer. I am a athiest but still find that offensice becouse of how u talk about lucifer. So untill u formaly apologise I............................Am forced to resgien from the OHA. Just becouse I am a athiset i do not insalt ur choice of relgion and i dont think u should insalt mine even if being a athiest is not a relgion.

Same thing for u pan

"From what I can tell, it is all about taking what you want.  You use the power of Satan to your advantage and you use that incredible force to get what you want"

Pan just becouse u look something up dose not mean u truly understand it To understand it u must partispate. My dads a christien and took me to church on diferent ocasions(he still dosent know i am athiest maybe i should tell him) So i kind of know a thing or to about christianity

On the Exodus verse: doesn't 'evil' include witches?

Not nessisarily ever heard of the good wich of the north?

Ok if all forms of witchcraft are wrong as u say then how do u a good christine alow herslef to read The lord of the rings triligy and dont give me this crap about this or that,  its still basicly witchcraft and what about  Harry Potter? U read all of them your self and its actuly about witchcraft. Heck if u wanted to u could call them a loose guide to witchcrat. And dare i say?(dare! Dare!) Wizzerd of ozz All most all americans and most of the people of the world have seen it dose this mean that some how we partisipated in witchcraft and are going to hell?

but took it a step farther and insalted not only a relgion but that person as well. Its there choice u cant change there minds so stop tying . Cause if u dont this thread will burn in a pit of fire(not hell just a large pit of fire)

[Gobalopper]

UsulSK when you reply try to post your response in one message not six. :)

You can always go back later and edit your post if you need to change/add something.

[quoudam72]

                         

Usul, Usul, UsulSK........then read again what I wrote and you will see that you are wrong in your assumption. He who choses to be ignorant will be, he who choses to know will know but he who choses to understand what he knows will be wise. In matters of right and wrong understanding is needed to know right and or to correct wrong you must first understand why it is wrong to begin with. In trying to be right you maybe wrong sometimes learn from your wrong and correct it to be right. Now pull up your pants and quit showing your arse, because you are wrong about me.

[Acriku]

I myself am a 'science' athiest. I believe that evolution exists, and it is, to me, gradual perfection. If I love life and the earth, I'm not apt to think that something higher made it all. Things are the way they are. People accept Christianity because it is the easy way out in life (overall) - like : If I follow this guy and be good I'll be in heaven! Woo! Faith is in the mind, and if our minds are poisoned, our faith is poisoned. Soon enough faith will wither and die.  Why do you think most civilizations have religion? They weren't all visited by God and given a book to abide by. It is called fearing death and what will happen after it. You believe in a God out of fear. Deep down =)

[hilamobster13]

hey u guys and religious extremist girl(not an insult, just a harsh fact. please do not retaliate) i have some input:

1. christian is not defined except that you believe in god and that jesus was crucified and was the son of god.

2. lets explore the roots of the word wiccan:

wicca:the practice of so called "magic" using what was known as "pharmacia", the root word of pharmacy.

the definition of pharmacia is any drug used in old "magic" to alter a person or any other animate object.  these were actually just things like pennicillin and marajuana.

so pan1234, if joo are so extreme as to percecute us all for our beliefs,(and i am a christian, but I will not go insane over someone elses beliefs.) you could also say poeple like physicians, pharmacists, endocrinologists, psyciatrists, and other such medical technicians are also wiccans. :O >:( :'(   (its so true! waah! :'( )

again, i am christian, i just do not believe in persecuting everyone who isnt.

and this isnt an insult or argument, it is just a fact.

so    :-* my *alternate word for donkey*

[exatreide]

I agree with  

Acriku  

[nemafakei]

"First of all, the Bible warns us that no man is sinless"

The point is that the bible is not necessarily correct!

Besides, that means that no theist is sinless, either. So it follows that a good man cannot benefit from religion.

For clarity:

Atheists specifically believe that there is not anything with regard to gods. Agnostics don't specifically believe in anything.

I don't mind christians (or anyone else) getting together and praying of their own volition. That's their choice. It's when atheists are forced to that I complain. It's like a christian being told they must worship the devil. In Britain, at least, a good deal of schools used to (and still do) force prayer and hymns, although often allow muslims and so on to be excused - but not atheists. That's also a violation of human rights.

Oh, and just a sidenote - no-one should be forced to provide facilities for religious types to pray; they can do that in their own free time.

Another thing that annoys me about religion is the indoctrination - parents often 'educate' their children to be the same religion as them, without giving them a choice. By the time they're old enough to choose rationally, their choice is already crippled by years of propaganda teaching them about how good these religions supposedly are. There is not an opportunity for a balanced view.

I was baptised before I was even a year old. Can you imagine how I feel about that? That's like someone signing you up to the communist party (for example) without asking you - especially when you turn out to be (in this example) a conservative. Such is the cruelty of religion.

I say people should be educated about all religion (including paganism, atheism, or whatever), but brought up as agnostics (note: not atheists), until you are old enough to decide what you want to do. It's the only fair way.

And as to the allowing evil: If he gives us the choice to be evil when he could easily stop cruelty, then he condones it. That's in essence what condoning is. It doesn't matter if he didn't want puppets, because he chose to give us the choice, and since he can only have known that we would do evil, given the choice, only he can be held responsible. Is a parent not responsible for the death of a toddler's death if the parent takes it to a cliff and allows it to toddle where it likes? Especially if the parent knows very well that the toddler is curious, and will inevitably fall off. For in comparison to this god, we must be as infants (mentally). Assuming he exists. Therefore, I would say that either he does not, or is a cruel sadist.

"But converting wiccans by force is not part of those evil things"

So if pagans converted christians by force, that would not be evil? I find that converting someone's belief against their own will is pretty high up on the evil scale. And the number of witch-burnings in Britain, for example was phenomenal - and the Church carried out most of the procedures. That doesn't count the number who were not burnt, but were successfully forced to change their ways to that of the christians. (Oh, and there was no christian army as such, just the people - except for during the Holy Roman Empire, in which I think there were religious militias)

"Isn't it funny how all those people who claim to be better than us don't even have the hearts to forgive us for something OUR ANCESTORS did"

I could say that history has a tendancy to repeat itself, but I don't tend to judge people in that way; individuals are not guilty of whatever their ancestors may have done. On the other hand, if I see a christian (or muslim or whatever) being oppressive to other people (as I have on numerous ocassions), I will take it that this person has not relinquished the desire to convert people forcefully or whatever, and he or she will be 'judged' to be a 'bad' person.

While I see in good individuals nothing to forgive, in the religion itself there is something to forgive. Although John Paul is asking forgiveness in some aras, many religious institutions have not apologised for many heinous crimes. How can you forgive someone if they make no attempt to promise they won't do the same again (for is that not the basis of an apology)? Those institutions who show no remorse for what they have done in the past, and so are not worthy of forgiveness. This has little bearing on the individual wiothin the religious establishment, unless he or she does not accept the church's culpability for its actions, and would not support any action in the future.

--- End of part 1 of my post ---

[Acriku]

Nice points Nema. And I have to add, Christianity and all the others do give good morals to abide by, for it has prevented chaos numerous of times. But that is all I can see benificial in a religion. And I was raised Jewish, which is also a way of life, rather than a religion, so I am leading a Jewish life, but am also an Atheist. Religions are fascinating to study (e.g. Greek mythology and Roman mythology). Let's all be happy and joy joy.

[Guest Axissillian Again!]

Ok Edric I have returned with just what you requested... but first.  Edric... there is a BIG difference between the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church.  The Byzantine Empire was first a major part of the Roman Catholic Church RIGHT after the fall of Rome (The Byzantine Empire was the unconquered half of the Roman Empire.)  So see... the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH was a MAJOR power after the fall of rome, but you are correct... the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE did not start until some time later.  And while I could respond to the person who called Witchcraft "Using of the powers to selfishly gain what they want" and even had the audacity to call Raven-Aishiru "disgusting" I will not get into an emotional debate.  While on here I have tried (and in my opinion succeeded) to present THE FACTS.  Not opinions on why God does this and why God does that, only showing that which is without a doubt true.  I would think this argument would become a bit more civil and logical if other people followed the same path... both on our side and theirs.  Now then... for the real reason I placed this article... the evidence Edric had asked for... the following qoutes are from two NEUTRAL history texts, one being "Witches, Goblins, and Ghouls" which evalutated the History of the Halloween holliday... and our AP World History text book.

WGG Qoutes:

"SOME ROMANS in the conquered Territories accepted the Pagan Religion. There were also SEVERAL DRUID CONVERTS IN ROME ITSELF."

"Roman Emperors soon banned the religion and many Pagan priests were HUNTED DOWN AND KILLED"

History Text Book Qoutes:

"Theodesius (Succesor of Constantine who originally brought Christianity into Roman mainstream) banned Pagan Worship.  From that point CHRISTIAN emperors persecuted Pagans, ordered Pagan Temples demolished, and abolished the Olympic Games (Since they were a pagan festival)."

So then Edric... there is your evidence... two texts collected in only 10 minutes before Home Room... enjoy!

[nampigai]

Nema I just have one thing to add, when you're a child every thing your parents do seems to be the right thing and it's only natural that they take decesions for you the first years in your life. Later on you find out things youself and are able to take descisions, if you get what I mean.

[nemafakei]

"Many american christians agree with the atrocity of capital punishement because they've been indoctrinated" With the idea of christianity or with capital punishment. Most likely the first apparently to serve the latter.

As to the test of faith and leap of faith business: The problem is that you start with the assumption that Christianity is true an good and all that, then seek to prove it. I started with that assumption (ish) - see post part 1 - and I needed logic to overcome this into Atheism.

Sinlessness: OK, no-one's perfect, but that's not our fault (it's got to be god's). I say an atheist can still be a good person who works for the betterment of society in all its forms, or something destructive. That is being good. And I've never thought of something with the intention of evil. Almost all is for what I believe to be good. Just because it dosen't have God's name on it, (metaphorically) doesn't mean it's wrong.

"He who choses to be ignorant will be, he who choses to know will know but he who choses to understand what he knows will be wise"  And he who either choses or chooses to lay their faith before their wisdom prove themselves unwise.

Ok. Enough replying to what people say. Time to state something contraversial myself!

I put it to you these things:

Since older religion is not the same as new religion, no faith is correct (unless by chance) since they contradict - any divine intervention would mean religion is constant.

Being 'good' will get you into heaven: If you go to church and accept Jesus and all that - in order tht you might go to heaven, is that not less noble than the atheist who does what is right simply because he wants to improve society, and is not seeking some reward?

You say that Atheists effectively are all controlled by evil (Lucifer remark). Just because I don't support your God doesn't mean I'm evil! Firstly, how do you know your god's not evil (were he to exist)? Secondly, am I (who never deliberately offends or attacks innocents) more evil than the man who insults people for their faith?

Evil (such as it is) is caused by either disagreements or evil people. Since disagreements include religious disagreement, and religion acts as a magnet for those who wish to manipulate (from the Pharaoahs to the Tsars to Hitler (he did start up his own religion) to the KKK). Even the UK monarchy, the US government and others are saturated with specific religions - "Dieu et mon droit"; "In God we trust" -second point: Is this fair?

[Guest Axissillian Again!]

Well, since many of you like using bible quotes to prove your pojnt... I figured I would use bible quotes too!

(Sorry if this offends anyone, the real purpose of this is to prove biblical quotation is irrelevant in legitamate discussion)

"The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the Lord hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet" (Nahum 1:3). - So Cumulus Nimbus is the Piggy who went to market?

"Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth" (Job 37:2-3). - Damn... and I thought it was electricty

"I do set my bow in the cloud; and it shall be a token of a covenant between me and the earth. And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: And I will remember my covenant, which is between you and me and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh" (Genesis 9:13-15). - Once again I was wrong, this whole time I thought it was the light reflecting off of aerial moisture... damn!

Behold, the whirlwind of the Lord goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked" (Jeremiah 30:23).  - They must REALLY sin in trailer parks!

"Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger" - Damn... I thought it was plate techtonics

"But the hand of the Lord was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods 9 (hemorrhoids), even Ashdod and the coasts thereof" (1 Samuel 5:6).  - Owie!

"And JACOB begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus." (Matthew 1:16) and And Jesus being the son of Joseph, which was the son of HELI." (Luke 3:23) - I found a plot hole!

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). - God needs serious lessons in political correctness!

Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their husbands in every thing" (Ephesians 5:22-24) - No comment needed

"And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days . . . But if she bare a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks" (Leviticus 12:1-5). - But my mom left the hospital after only 3 days!

"When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies . . . And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house . . . thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife" (Deuteronomy 21:10-13). - She'll scream rape!

"Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." - Psalm 137:9 - I know, little kids are irritating

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son.... bring him unto the elders of his city.... And all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you..." - Ever talked back to your parents? *makes the motion of a throat being slit*

There you go, honestly I have no real problem with christians of christianity.  It when people like Pan have the audacity to call My Atheist friends, My Wicca girlfriend, and my Agnostic self "Servants of Satan", when we are just trying to be happy... that is when I get mad.  So sorry if I offended anyone who takes alternate religions openly... I try and do the same for you.

[hilamobster13]

"He who choses to be ignorant will be, he who choses to know will know but he who choses to understand what he knows will be wise

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Being 'good' will get you into heaven: If you go to church and accept Jesus and all that

isnt this a huge contradiction??  acording to your quote,

you are neither wise or knowing, making you ignorant.

christian poeple do not get into heaven with your definition of "good".  those are crucial, but you have apologise and ask for forgiveness of your sins to be forgiven and accepted into heaven..

you cannot accept jesus and go to church, then commit murder, and go to hell.

noone is safe accept with the forgiveness of god, not even supposed christians.

being that athiests do not accept god, they cannot ask him for forgiveness, and therefore go to hell.

look, ive tried to play devils advocate(no pun intended),

but you guys just bash and bash like mindless grunts from halo.

try to speak more as a neutral person REALLY, and then talk.

oh, and it says that on coins because they are mainly christian countrys. so far noone seams to be complaining except you.

[ordos45]

Ex, I know the Lord of the RIngs tuff wasn't pointed at me but I do not read them, I do not read Harry Potter, I do not watch Buffy the Vampire SLayer, I do not watch Charmed, I do not watch MTV(Its practically all sex and hedonism).

[quoudam72]

And he who either choses or chooses to lay their faith before their wisdom prove themselves unwise.

Ok so I misspelled the word chooses thanks but I was typing fast and trying to do serveral tasks at the same time. I know how to spell the word. As far as the additional sentence (Nema) placed in my words. I did not say that, I said what I wanted to say. If it was correction I do not feel your correction is needed because it does not fit the continnuity of what was being said. But then again on the other hand that would be unwise depending on who you are. Putting your faith before you could be look apon as........ blind faith or taking a chance or maybe even trusting your instincts or whatever variation you may know. Your addition to what I said can not apply to me because I did not lay my faith before myself, look very carefully and you will see that I haven't. I have just typed replies like this one. I mean I know this could be look apon as an theological/theosophical debate between those who are Christians and Atheist, I have not said I was either.

Now there might be some typos in my typing just point them out and I will change them accordingly.

[nampigai]

hmmmm  ;D