Acriku Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 Well of course it won't yoshi. And the no free will thing I think is about while believing in it, you won't have any free will. Because if you don't believe, then you won't listen to the Bible and won't be a "slave", so to speak. And also, only thousands of Jews? Hmm...try again?Questioning whether Jews existed is crazy...
evilbaronatreides Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 uhhh I was christened as a Jew/Catholic (my mother converted and my dad is a Mexican Catholic, how they married and still are togather, the world will never know)and i am pretty sure i exist. I even have a spiffy yamacha with an anit-swastika on it. I never had a huge bar mitzva though.
Acriku Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 Friday at the Synagogue is fun, I like Adon Olam (forgot spelling, goes like adon olam, asher malach, beterem col, yezteer nevra-a-a, and so on :))
TMA_1 Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 Okay all of you. This isnt a debate this is an argument. That was the point of the conversation. To debate. Now dont answer that answer this because I dont want any of you going off the subject. You wont prove christianity wrong. You wont prove evolution wrong. Sure there is micro evolution. Mutation though hasnt been proven to completely alter one spieces to another. i.e. missing links. You guys are full of it. You people who are evoltionists wont listen to creation ideas and you wont believe them. Dont say you will because as much as you like to say it you are just as closed minded as me or any other christian. If you say you are open minded I will laugh at you. I will seriously laugh. Same with christians. We do scientific tests based on the 5 senses. Those senses can be disproven. They arent perfect. Therefore how do we know that all we see in this life is real? how can you logically prove something that cant be proven in the first place. I believe by faith not by sight. I just forget the senses and believe by confidence. Evolutionists cant believe in the words of the bible because Genesis states that we were seperately created. Both sides; grow up. You wont prove anything so this whole thread is worthless. nobody is openminded. DUH!:)
Sardauker-Kirov Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 Okay. Lets make everybody Open minded! Lets start with you *Evil grin and grabs his Compact Buzz buzzer * ;D
Acriku Posted January 30, 2002 Posted January 30, 2002 One thing TMA:Wrong! I am openminded, I have looked at both sides or more on whether God exists. I still do, and if I am brought substantial evidence that God exists, I would consider it. What you TMA are saying is that we won't ever change our minds, being close-minded and all. And eventually there will be enough evidence on one side to think the other as absurd. But that will take a long time. In conclusion, I am openminded, and am willing to listen to everyone. So, that pretty much takes care of your post TMA. Sorry to be so mean, but that is the feeling I perceived from your post. :)
Edric O Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 Acriku, I'm sure every biologist in the world would be interested to find out just how exactly are you MAKING life. So far, we've only been able to slightly modify existing lifeforms. Can you make me a flying elephant, please?You think we're slaves? Well, is it better to serve in heaven or rule in hell?What do you WANT, really? What's your purpose in life? You must have one, and for most people that purpose is simply to be happy. I'd rather be a happy slave than a tormented master.Slavery is slavery only if you don't like it.Nema, I hope you realize that believing in a non-existence without any proof is just as illogical as believing in an existence without proof. The only logical position is agnosticism. But this logic is relative... it depends on what your goal is. If the goal is "to know the truth at a rational level", then you should be an agnostic. If the goal is "to be happy", then there's the impecable logic of Pascal's Wager:Considering that belief and non-belief have no effect on your happiness in your lifetime, then by being an atheist you have everything to lose, while by believing you have a chance to "win".There's logic for ya.Missionaries and preachers inform us and try to persuade us, but they're no different from advertising, for example (I'm referring to the present day ones, of course). Do ads tell you what to think?As far as "not questioning" goes, how is religion any different from science? Try to go to a physicist and start questioning our models for the structure of the atom! Even if you have a Nobel Prize, you still have a high chance of being laughed at for questioning the dogma... sorry, the proven facts.My definition of life:An anomaly that is able to reverse entropy, bringing order out of chaos, growing ever more complex.^Much simpler and more general than those 7 tests. Not all lifeforms would need to breathe or excrete, for example. From a certain point of view, stars are half-alive. They create negative entropy. They insure the creation of more complex stars by supernova explosions. They are using up resources. I'm sure that if we could count the total number of stars in the Universe from the Big Bang until resources are depleted, we'd get the familiar sigmuind (sp?) curve. The evolution of a living population in the absence of predators...I think stars are as alive as bacteria.UsulSK, of course it's a good thing to constantly criticize yourself... but don't we christians criticize ourselves, too?The problem with a man following his own will is that his will might be evil (if he's a mass murderer, for example).To all atheists: If you want me to stop claiming that I know how you think, then you should also stop claiming that you know how Christians think (or that we all think the same).
Edric O Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 P.S. Nema, if you question your standing every day, what kind of new data/evidence/whatever could make you change your beliefs?I'm just curious...
Sardauker-Kirov Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 He wants god to play against him with Emperor of dune, Or He wants god to Change his Sneaky Picture on the left. The mentat of dune 1 :)Maybe that will be Sufficient Proof for him :P
TMA_1 Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 Acriku. I am laughing. remember i said I would if you claimed you were open minded again. No person in the world is. What do you think all of this talk will do? Nobody will change. You dont talk with an open mind but to put everybody elses opinion down. You are ignorant like the rest of us. duh
Acriku Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 EdricO, I added the "slave" part to add to my argument, not to start another fiasco about it, sorry if I rattled your brain. And also, TMA, so what are converted people? They aren't close-minded because they changed, which is the opposite of your argument. Close-minded people believe in their beliefs, they don't even think of considering the other side. But here we have millions of convertions of people from one religion to another? I say they are...how you say?...ah yes...open-minded.
muaddib Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 ok bros i have a question you all agree that the world is going through a crisis. a moral and ethical crisis, my reasoning comes from the fact that there are many evil deeds happening in the world today, so knowing that do you agree that we need a "Muad'Dib" a god that would lead us in a better direction than the one we are going today? i think we need one a spiritual leader that would rise up above the world religions and explain some things that maybe we forgot
Acriku Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 People can live just as good of a life without a God Otheym. And why do we need a God to help us through?
quoudam72 Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 ........so knowing that do you agree that we need a "Muad'Dib" a god
evilbaronatreides Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 then again he could be the messiah. really depends on your interpretation.
quoudam72 Posted January 31, 2002 Posted January 31, 2002 I was just refering to that from the bible because it talks about how the Anti-Christ will come but he will deceive the world into thinking he is a "lamb of God" but is really a false prophet.
Mordecai Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 I agree with Acriku: people can get through their problems on their own. Anyway, if someone did stand up and say that they were the messiah, who would believe them? For a start, most churches etc. would call it blasphemy and any miracles performed would be explained away by science. However, some book written by a persecuted, tortured madman is hardly going to be the truth of the future. Why is St. John of Patmos taken to be right when any fool could stand up and say that one day plaid squirrels will rule the world? Humans are fools. They fear the unknown.
Edric O Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 PEOPLE CAN MANAGE ON THEIR OWN?? That must be the best joke I've heard in years!PollutionWarRacismMurderIt looks like the only thing people can do on their own is to screw up the world... I wonder how can God still love this filthy species. I wouldn't. Even as a human I consider mankind something similar to the Plague.Don't worry, a messiah will come very soon. He will lead ISLAM to victory against us. Most of us will probably die in the war, fighting a losing battle... :( :( :(
quoudam72 Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 Ouch Mr. Executrix!!!!! Your stepping on alot of toes with those last statements.
Edric O Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 I apologise in advance if I'll offend anyone, that's not my intention...I'm now an Emperor again! Yay! ;D
Sardauker-Kirov Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 I have to agree with his words,People are filty, War Spreading. MurdersBut this is just evilSome people are good and some are bad.And do u think that if the muslims win the World would be better? Did u even saw what they do to their own People. Blowing their brains out, Slicing their troats and heads off? :-X
nemafakei Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 Edric ----"Try to go to a physicist and start questioning our models for the structure of the atom!"No scientist I know is very sure about such things as the actual structure of the atom (they know the particles, but not what they actually are)."sigmuind"Sigmoid, which is the correct term, but is damn silly given the actual appearance of a sigma compares to an S."Nema, I hope you realize that believing in a non-existence without any proof is just as illogical as believing in an existence without proof"Why do you think I am an atheist? I don't just mean a few examples proof, I mean logic proof. Logic which currently (and since I was only a few years old) tells me that religion is not correct. "what kind of new data/evidence/whatever could make you change your beliefs"If you were to argue well enough (for which you'd need to be right) to prove existence of a god, then I would change my beliefs. But remember, I am the judge of the logic when it comes to my beliefs. "impecable logic of Pascal's Wager"Pascal's wager is almost immoral in my view anyway.Happiness is not my object, (useful) knowledge is. Besides, religion is not a question of what you want, but what actually IS. The idea of a heaven and life after death is all very nice - and I'd join with Pascale - except for the (in my convicted opinion) fact that there isn't one."If you want me to stop claiming that I know how you think, then you should also stop claiming that you know how Christians think "All I have used is teachings common to most religious denominations and what people here have said. Since atheism is not institutionalised, nothing similar can be assumed.Others ----"I just forget the senses and believe by confidence"I forget the mindless confidence and rely on sense. Then I come up with a sensible answer."Therefore how do we know that all we see in this life is real?"Plato (I think?) questioed this. The point is, we can assume the senses to be correct to a certain degree - else there wouldn't be much point.I AM open minded - it's just that I have far more logical reason to remain atheist. As I say, provide better reason, and I will change. If you read some earlier posts, you will realise that I (and Edric) HAVE already switched - I did so because religion just doesn't make sense, but I don't know about Edric. "Or He wants god to Change his Sneaky Picture on the left"That's GOB, not GOD! And I'm happy with Thufir."He wants god to play against him with Emperor of dune"What's his login name? yhwh, according to the old testament in Hebrew.
quoudam72 Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 ::) First you are refering to extremist of the Islamic faith make your statements accordingly. Ignorance is not a sheild to hide behind but a shackle apon your mind.
muaddib Posted February 1, 2002 Posted February 1, 2002 ha in my opinion the islamic religion is passing the same phase christianity passed in the 11-15th centruries the jihad ; all christianity had its crusades islam has its jihad same thing different time it will pass in the same way crusades passedanother thing i think All the religions that we have nowdays have failled in making mankind better and more positive that is my opinion that is why i think a messiah or god would be appropiate in these times and i also think that no one will challenge a god if he apeared i mean who challenges one anyway
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