TMA_1 Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 okay I am a strong christian but both you and I know edric. that we are not going to win an arguement. Nema we know you wont change your beliefs and I wont either. Christianity is strictly faith based. We dont prove anything. "we believe by faith, not by sight". I know of the big bang theory and I dont beleive it to be true. I have no scientific proof to back up my case but frankly you dont have fact either to support your opinion. The bb theory is just that. a theory. both of the groups. stop shoving opinion down eachothers throats. and dont tell me you guys arent because you are!lol I believe eons ago god created everything in its good puprose. That there is micro evolution but not macro evolution. dont argue wiht me thats what I believe. I know I cant change you guys. so just stop freaking out. and you are so dont say you guys arent. about the whole free will/hitler stuff. There is no more divine intervention because after the canon of scripture was formed. i.e. the bible. There was no more need for that sort of thing and god lets time unfold. he does not interfer but rather he choreographs every single event under the great heavens. if you guys that dont agree with christianity. at least do it with some scriptual sense. you may read the bible but you dont put your heart into it. and you dont read everything you can on it. thank you have have a nice day.lol:) :)
Edric O Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 Of course I do believe in miracles, but I also believe that God only does "minor" miracles and only in certain conditions, so He doesn't affect our free will. Sending angels down from heaven to prevent a planetary war wouldn't be too discrete...P.S. I have to go offline now... must enter standby mode in order to regenerate processing capability (I have to get some sleep ;D)
nemafakei Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 "you may read the bible but you dont put your heart into it"Too right - I use my brain - it's much better for thinking with."Nema we know you wont change your beliefs "All it requires is a VALID logical argument for me to change. Referring back to my second post on the 15th:"The problem is that you start with the assumption that Christianity is true an good and all that, then seek to prove it. I started with that assumption {...} and I needed logic to overcome this into Atheism"
Acriku Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 Welcome back Edric :) Strange to think such people here can be Satan's minions or whatever :-/Anyways, everything we are talking about is a theory, and hasn't been proven. It is just a matter of wanting to believe one of them. Or more if you can. And Edric a hypothetical situation for ya:Your mother just woke up and decided to go Athiest, after researching Athiesm and all that. Would you truly believe your mother would be going to hell? Your love for her wouldn't go through your faith, which, as far as I know, states you will be in heaven and she in hell? I'm just wondering.
evilbaronatreides Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 I said that evolution contridicted Christianity/religion? I dont quite remember saying that, but if i did in any way, i didnt mean that. I too have mixed feelings on evolution vs creation. Personally, I think religion just another way for a group of elite people to keep control over the masses, another tool to enslave. But if you have a religion, thats fine and dandy, nothing wrong with that, just as long as you dont become some sort of fundemental extremist nazi-like zealot praising religious superiority (thats the kind of attitude that ends up killing lots of people in some crusade/jihad/holy war against the filthy infidels) Im not one to interpret the word of God, or anything, but I doubt God likes it when thousands of people are killed in mass genocide in his name. I know i wouldnt like if someone did that in my name. I also doubt that destroying for your god grants you an instant seat in paradise. In theroy, religion works rather well, but when people begin to abusing the privilages of religion (which has happened, and continues to happen) for personal gain, religion begins to lose its luster. PS: For all your believers out there, whats your reason for having a religion? (I just would like to know)
Acriku Posted January 23, 2002 Posted January 23, 2002 I agree Evilbaron, this made me remember the St. Peter indulgences. Ah the power of claiming the word of God.
Kantama Posted January 24, 2002 Posted January 24, 2002 ;D Hey! We got some intelligent peeps here! Alrighty.... I know most of what I state by watching Kent Hovind videos. He preaches on Creation vs. Evolution. Evolution is against God all the way. The Day-Age Theory, the Gap Theory, are all nutso. People COMPRIMISE the BIBLE!!! Which is NOT GOOD! People say that God used evolution 'cause that means they can stick God in a closet and go on with life. I don't know about _your_ God, but the God I follow did it right the first time. He didn't have to use mutants, suffering and death to get us here. There are THOUSANDS of differences between humans and apes. What PROOF is there of evolution?? Hmmm? Show me some. I'm waiting. Evolution was SHOVED DOWN MY THROAT in public school because they wanted me a good slave for their New World Order. That's what it's all about people! HITLER believed in EVOLUTION! As did the old President Roosevelt. Did you know that Hitler offered to ship all the Jews off to any country who would take them?????? He did. And guess who refused to take them? All the Jews could have been DELIVERED TO SAFETY, except the President at the time was an evolutionist! Chew on that. And, I am a girl. Thank you very much.
exatreide Posted January 24, 2002 Posted January 24, 2002 hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahah loooooooooooooooool. ROTFLMAO. You sure are funny.Ever here about a little something called DNA? huh? And so your saying someone who is belives in evolution is a bad person. Shesh what propaganda have u been subjected to. I mean wow! You must live with a realy realy realy amish family. i mean WOW! Get your facts right before u post something like that. WOW!sorry but.hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahah ROTFLMAO. hahahahahahahaha.Now that i am done with that lets move on?
quoudam72 Posted January 24, 2002 Posted January 24, 2002 Please do I am so tired of people mentioning Hitler. Piss on Hitler's grave let him die and stay dead. Ms. Kantama you could have used other information as a basis for your arguement, it all seems so meaningless.
evilbaronatreides Posted January 24, 2002 Posted January 24, 2002 Kantama, strange how you ask for proof of evolution, when you have no proof yourself. Again I will ask: What proof of God do you have?(I am asking Kantama, so Fed, please hold back a sec will you?) Give me one credible shread of evidence, and I will change my outlook on you.( cause thats looking pretty bad at the moment) By the by, are you Phyllis Schflay?
Acriku Posted January 24, 2002 Posted January 24, 2002 This thing about the Jews could have gone to safety? Hitler, being as clever and crazy he is, would have done something other than just let them go. He wanted to conquer the world and make it full of blond, blue-eyed (back off Fremen, not you guys) people. Why would he want to rule a world with different people who he hated so much - aka Jewish and other people. Why? Also, there is evidence of evolution all around us, try our DNA for example, like Ex said. It is composed of ~50% of fruit fly genes, ~85% of dog's, and 99% of chimp's. Proof there badda bing badda boom.
gunner154 Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 No, im not a Jew for saying this. i dont condemn the Jews. they do not deserve such horrible treatment!
Edric O Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 evilbaronatreides, proof is WAY overrated in today's world. Strictly speaking, we can't *prove* anything. Maths, for example, is based on a system of axioms, "unprovable truths". Can you *prove* to me that 1+1=2? Experimental evidence doesn't count, it never did. And don't try using some sort of logical argument (like it being "common sense" that 1+1=2), because most things in today's science defy "common sense" completely. For example, did you know that the Universe probably has 11 or 12 dimensions, instead of just having the 4 that we are aware of?Why do I believe in God? Well why not? What do I have to lose? Besides, God fits wonderfuly with my philosophy. I see God as an entity much greater than our meager Universe. He is the infinite "something" that exists "outside" time and space. Being infinite in everything, he is also infinitely complex, and thus infinitely intelligent. It's easy to realize that intelligence comes with complexity. The human brain is the most complex structure in the Universe.Organized Religion has always been used to manipulate people, sadly, but being Christian doesn't mean you have to listen to the clergy! Let them have their opinions, I have my own. Why do atheists always think that Christians blindly follow some leaders? WE DON'T! At least some of us...Atheism is such a simplistic view of the world...And evolutionism holds the ridiculous claim that it has explained everything (at least all the basic stuff). When you look at all the huge mistakes of science over the centuries, you realize that all we think we know is probably either plain wrong or severely lacking.Acriku, my mother used to be an atheist. My father still is. Of course I know he'll go to hell if he doesn't change. But he will, I'm working on it. My mother became a Christian after being an atheist at first, then agnostic for many years.Let me tell you this: The stupidest thing a person could do is to give up on a religion because he/she doesn't like an aspect of it. The question is not whether you LIKE it, the question is whether it strikes you as true. I happen to like Christianity a lot, because it's a religion of love. I don't like Islam, for example, but I'd convert anyway if I thought it's true.Also, DNA proves nothing. Just because we are similar to some other lifeforms doesn't mean we have a common ancestor. It makes sense for God to use similar designs for the lifeforms of the same planet!
quoudam72 Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 God to me is (a force/being/enity) outside of our time continuum/realm/dimension. The complexity of the universe can't always be explained not by science in some cases and not by religion.Edric O brought up a good point about listening to the clergy blindly. If you always listen without ever asking questions then you deserve not to know. And it is like anywhere you go the questions that you ask, will not always be answered or have any immediate answers. Religion is only one answer and the begining of many more questions. Religion is guidiance for mankind, spiritiual guidiance. I know there are those among this discussion that do not believe and care not to but it is easier to believe in nothing than it is to believe in something it takes strenght. I have no proof to say this is true only to believe it in my mind and it be. My beliefs are my own and not something someone told me and I just believe without questioning, just answering the statement about following religion blindly. To sum it up IMO there are forces of light and forces of dark (good and evil if you must). These forces were here long before mankind ever existed and they do not exist in the same dimension as mankind. But like I have said this is my belief.
evilbaronatreides Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 wow, pretty deep Fed and Edric. But Edric, why is it you dont like Islam?
UsulSK Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 > it is easier to believe in nothing than it is to believe in > something it takes strenght.
Acriku Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 I agree Usul2k. Sure sometimes I fear that I may be wrong and I will go to hell, but I remember what I believe in and that leaves me feeling good. And DNA, if I remember correctly, which has strands from other animals, the chimp for example, would logically mean we came from them. Because think about it, evolving from a species involves changing chunks of your DNA, leaving strands from the previous species floating around giving us similar traits. Hey! We have similar traits of a chimpanzee! It makes sense :) And Edric the only reason you or other people came to the conclusion God must be outside of Time is because you found a problem with the Bible, and fixed it by saying something outside of it. Nowhere in it does it say he is outside of Time, but you go ahead and manipulate it to fit your needs. One final note: Cloning, if we make a clone of a human, and it has unique personality, will we not be as powerful as God, because we made life to the same result that God did? And if you are going to say we can't make the universe or whatever, give us a million years and we will be on our way :) What will religion say then? We would have achieved everything God has supposedly done, so where does religion stand?
UsulSK Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 Reality is what refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. Philip K. Dick
Sardauker-Kirov Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 Hmmmm, The world wars always has something to do with Religion. next the Nazi's Gods, And next the Crazy Muslim Belief. Whats next? The Harkonnen Baron god :) j/k Anyways, I believe in god a bit. Not that much that i go to the Church and Pray and crap like that. I Believe god has created the universe. And another thing for the "god" haters and non believers. Good and Evil exists in the world, Sometimes good triumphs and sometimes evil. Just see it as a Cheat=Evil and the Anti cheats=Good try to destroy the cheats :D ( I sound crazy no? )
Acriku Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 Good and evil is a matter of perspective. And how is that for the "non-believers"? Are good and evil proof to you that such a God exists?
Sardauker-Kirov Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 God = Good - Devil = Evil. For the religions. And for the Non believers well, You be the judge.
nemafakei Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 I think you'll find I'm not a non-believer, but someone who believes with surety that there is no God. (Atheist not agnostic)Good and evil are classifications of actions which are often misused. There exists no great purpose of Good nor Evil. To do something good is to do something overly constructive - evil is to do something generally destructive.Since there is no god or devil, I can't judge them.Onto other things..."When you look at all the huge mistakes of science over the centuries"...You find parrallels with the mistakes of religion over the millenia.But anyway, remember that all the creation myths were just handy explanations to suit human curiosity. They were based on imagination, not on any kind of reasoning except what would make a nice story (for a world without science, people didn't know omnipotent beings couldn't exist)."The question is not whether you LIKE it, the question is whether it strikes you as true"Certainly. And to me, it seems that no god exists, therefore I believe this. I don't like the idea of a "lose-lose situation" (from earlier in the thread), but it's an undelying fact of life - you die, and that's it. Besides, there can be no win, because there is nowhere else to go."it is easier to believe in nothing than it is to believe in something it takes strenght"Nope. Not in this society. (again see earlier post on baptism)"Nowhere in it does it say he is outside of Time, but you go ahead and manipulate it to fit your needs"That's a harsh way of putting it, but yes. Don't start with the assumption and seek to prove it to yourself.
quoudam72 Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 We are just alive as meaningless beings in a meaningless world. Mankind's imagination has made the entire universe meaningful or meaningless. ::)God does not exist but neither does man. If either one made the other then neither could exist without the other. :-/ The Creature as written by Fedaykin-SandwalkerMillions of years, before recorded time a creature looked toward the skies what did that creature see, how did it explain what it had seen. Such an ambitious creature, it set out to explain the great mystery. What the creature did not know is that explaining the great mystery was as complex, as the great mystery itself. And to this very day the creature still tries to find the answer to the great mystery. Except now that creature will climb the staircase to the skies in search of the answer to the great mystery. Such an ambitious creature............. :P
exatreide Posted January 25, 2002 Posted January 25, 2002 My dad belives that there is a supreme god. but he dosent belive in organized relgion. He thinks it brings up to much violence.
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