Emperor the truth

[Repoman]

I have been hearing non stop about many people putting sh*t on emperor and i feel that i must defend such a classic game.

The point I would like to make is the difficulty a programmer has in trying to create balance between opposing forces and this is what makes emperor so good. All 3 of the houses are very closely matched while at the same time all being distinctly different. Emperor does not recieve the praise that it should get for achieving this. Even the 5 sub houses are very even except for thexilu house but one out of 5 is acceptable.

The graphics are spectactular and deserve massive praise. If you have the game it top detail in close zoom it is sensational. Good graphics and great gameplay makes for the best RTS ever by a mile.

In relation to the cheats and bugs. I have only had one person cheat on me and we were mucking around in 3-4 months. The bugs are very minor apart from the harvester bug which is annoying at times but livable.

Emperer has only 2 main problems.

Marketing, there was none. Of course any product would fail without it. With the right marketing strategy this game would have easily been the biggest game ever.

Support, With a better designed interface for multiplayer interaction this game would be playable for so much longer.

What a shame because i love this game.

:'(

[Gunseng_Harkonnen]

Yes, what a shame, becouse I love it too. Some people say that if you bought it for single player, it sucks. I don`t agree, maybe last maps mission are the same and same but I still like play both campaign ans skirmish.

Sounds are great too, many people downland it and graphic is very good.

Bugs I only noticed when I was playing against Tleilaxu and I don`t remember more.

[DjCiD]

Ditto! I never said Emp was a bad game I love the game! The company which has show lack of support for the game is where my hate lies. I think the game is far superior to any other RTS. And If WW had any smarts they would continue on with the Duniverse... but even if they did would it be worth it if they didnt ultimatily come to their smarts and started supporting the games and not dropping them after a little while. But the game itself is a classic masterpiece. Im not saying it doesnt hav ea few flaws but all games do its because WW decided to not continute to fix these but hey what can we do... just enjoy the game ;D if it bugs anyone to the point that they cant play the game and enjoy it, then move on. ;D For everyone else hope to see you on the battle field ;D

[Navaros]

You are wrong about the bugs. The harvester bugs are not the least bit tolerable, and there are dozens upon dozens of pathfinding bugs in terms of unit movement that completely ruin the gameplay.

If you disagree with this assessment, then you do not have much experience with Emperor. Unless you babysit every single one of your units, if you send vehicles and infantry across the map at the same time, your infantry will get to the destination

100 000 times faster than your vehicles. Your infantry will get slaughtered. Then, when you have no infantry to defend yourself with, your vehicles will get slaughtered. The only way to cope with this, especially as Atreides, is to move your units one inch up the map, stop them, move them another inch up the map, etc. etc. etc. This is not the least bit fun, and ruins the gameplay in Emperor.

[DjCiD]

some ppl enjoy micro managing ;D whats wrong with licking on 50 of every ting and taken out a group of ur uints and playing commando, micro manage, move inch by inch.... yeha it can be a lil tedious but by micro managing u can get them to rank up instead of getting slaugthered good thgin bout that is as Atrides u can send ur infantry back in to train more. If only sards could do that ;D hey in the KH mod they do ;D or did at least dont know its been changed in v2 ;D

[SurlyPIG]

I think repo hit it right on the nose.

[Desert_Eagle25]

I'm with repo ;DI enjoy a good skirmish and a good campaign. The graphics are great, and I really dont notice most of the bugs. And yes, I like to micromanage. ;DAnd also, Like DjCid, my hate lies within WW support.

[Repoman]

Nav The world is not perfect, this is something that you will learn with age. All one can do is try to get as close to perfect as one can and i feel that Emperor has come closer than any other RTS game before it.

You have to break down what your priorities in a game should be.

1: Gameplay

By far and above the most important, emperor has found an equality betweeen the 3 house like no other game. Even the 5 subhouses are close. I don't think you quite comprehend how hard it is to achieve something like that. The debate to which house is the best could rage on for years. Just look at the sarduker and Fremen debate. ;D

Go the fremen although i pick both :P

2: Longetivity

I'll admit the single player interested me for about an hour. The multiplayer interface while i believe is lacking somewhat still gives you many many hours of play. The best thing is that every tactic has a counter tactic. Even a rush is stoppable if you see it coming and prepare.

3: Overall

This means graphics, sound and extras. As long as you have gameplay you generally have longetivity. With the two of these you have a gmae that is worth the money you payed for it.

My favourite game as a kid was called Rescue Raiders on my Apple IIe. Black and white helicopter semi rts and 3 person game. The graphics were tragic but this game had so much gameplay it was incredible. I finally got it on IBM and the graphics were in colour and far superior but the gameplay sucked so bad i played it for 20 mins and never played it again. On the Apple IIe i played it for half of my childhood.

If i had my way i would change a few things with emperor but i love it as it is and am getting hammered by my woman for playing it so much so nav(nag) live a little and look at the positive points in life rather than picking holes in things. ::)

If only Westwood would allow someone to develop a mod that could be voted on by the emperor community that could address the few issues that we have with it.

The Problem is not emperor but Westwood

Die Westwood Die

(although i love your games)

[Frodo_I]

i think WW got ALOT closer to a damn good game with ebfd than any other games they have made.

THe RA2, TS, etc games are just punk 2d 16-24 bit tatics games compared to ebfd. Ebfd uses strategies that you wouldn't be able to contemplate if it wasn't for the enhanced 3d effect

When was the last time you saw a post asking why someones mino didn't kill a kobra only to find out that the kobra was on a rise in the sand. On C and C the only way you could accomplish that was to GO ONTO A RISEN LAND MASS. On ebfd the SAND ITSELF has rises and valleys, which an experienced player can use, and an inexperienced player can biatch about

On ebfd you have the view tatic, change your default veiw and use stealthed characters. Someone who wouldn't know better would keep hearing the firing and attack but wouldn't find anything cause it's hidden from their view!! Tell me where you can do that with shadows and 3d view manipulation on RA2??

[Navaros]

I agree that the balance is very well done for the most part with the exception being that Invines are way overpowered due to their absurd range combined with the fact that their toxic crap of "instant infantry death!" STAYS on the map for five mins at a time, rendering anybody trying to use Inf to save himself vs a great Hark player completely and utterly defenseless.

The interface? Much much MUCH better than even that of the crappy WarCraft 3 interface. Going to WarCraft 3 and having to try to deal with the interface after seeing how much easier, funner, nicer, and less frustrating Emperor's interface is, is like having a ton of bricks dropped on your head.

The tragic part of Emperor is that despite it's great and in many ways brilliant design, it is unplayable due to pathfinding bugs. The guy who was making the pathfinding for Emperor left IG before the game was finished, hence you see dozens of game-ruining pathfinding bugs in Emperor.

Get rid of those, and you have a near-perfect game, yes. But the pathfinding bugs have turned what had the potential to be the best RTS ever made (in terms of online play only as the singleplayer campaign is a huge ripoff) into a barely-playable half-baked, unfinished product that Emperor now is.

[ken124578]

1. navaros is 100% AGAINST! ANY game.

2. i had NEVER EVER had any trouble with ANY bugs! >:(

[Navaros]

1. navaros is 100% AGAINST! ANY game.2. i had NEVER EVER had any trouble with ANY bugs! >:(

I am very much against most games because most games are crap. If you never had any trouble with any bugs in Emperor either one of only 3 things apply, pick one:1. You are an elite player who never defends his harvesting because every single one of your units is always in your enemy's face and if your enemy is able to mount an attack on your spice then you take the loss because all your units would be dead anyways since you never defend your spice, hence you don't notice/care about the harvesting bugs. (btw ken you are not bad but definitely not elite so this option does not apply to you)2. You have very little experience on a variety of maps in Emperor hence the few you do know (ie: Newbies' Plain) don't show you just how bad the bugs get, though even on that map it is evident to some extent.3. (By far the most common ailment for those who says bugs do not ruin Emperor's gameplay) You are incompetent. A buffoon. A simpleton. A moron. An ignoramas. A nitwit. Knumbskull. etc. etc. You've seen the bugs millions of times but were just too incompetent when it comes to RTS games to have realized they were there.

[Desert_Eagle25]

actually...theres a 4th...i've only seen a couple of the bugs u have said. My harvester all ways go to NEAREST spice field and onl go to NME's spice field if it's the closest one or their's is the only left...

[Gunseng_Harkonnen]

I didn`t have problems with bugs but Nav could have: winning enemy units. Its a bug, of course...

[Edric O]

Repoman, I completely agree with you. This topic hits the spot. Emperor is one of those games that could have become a legend, if only more people played it.

And the reasons why so few people play Emp are the ones you mentioned: lack of marketing and support... :'(

[Acriku]

You are wrong about the bugs. The harvester bugs are not the least bit tolerable, and there are dozens upon dozens of pathfinding bugs in terms of unit movement that completely ruin the gameplay.

If you disagree with this assessment, then you do not have much experience with Emperor. Unless you babysit every single one of your units, if you send vehicles and infantry across the map at the same time, your infantry will get to the destination

100 000 times faster than your vehicles. Your infantry will get slaughtered. Then, when you have no infantry to defend yourself with, your vehicles will get slaughtered. The only way to cope with this, especially as Atreides, is to move your units one inch up the map, stop them, move them another inch up the map, etc. etc. etc. This is not the least bit fun, and ruins the gameplay in Emperor.

I don't see how making a lot of units, gather them together, then right click on the enemy is strategy at all. Sure it might be fun for people who are just having fun, but for people like you Nav who compete - how is that strategy? Maybe that's why you aren't the number 1 Atr gangsta.

[ken124578]

1. navaros is 100% AGAINST! ANY game.

2. i had NEVER EVER had any trouble with ANY bugs! >:(

I am very much against most games because most games are crap.

If you never had any trouble with any bugs in Emperor either one of only 3 things apply, pick one:

1. You are an elite player who never defends his harvesting because every single one of your units is always in your enemy's face and if your enemy is able to mount an attack on your spice then you take the loss because all your units would be dead anyways since you never defend your spice, hence you don't notice/care about the harvesting bugs. (btw ken you are not bad but definitely not elite so this option does not apply to you)

2. You have very little experience on a variety of maps in Emperor hence the few you do know (ie: Newbies' Plain) don't show you just how bad the bugs get, though even on that map it is evident to some extent.

3. (By far the most common ailment for those who says bugs do not ruin Emperor's gameplay) You are incompetent. A buffoon. A simpleton. A moron. An ignoramas. A nitwit. Knumbskull. etc. etc. You've seen the bugs millions of times but were just too incompetent when it comes to RTS games to have realized they were there.

navaros, you know why i don't notice any bugs (except the aircraft bug) because i normally rush without giving my enemy enough time to een consider attacking my spice leaving his base defence open, or thinned out :P

besides, if i got a lot of harvesters i would always have units rolling out of my base which i could use to defend my base.

the last game i played with/against you was an game which i got almost my entire base and almost all my units destroyed >:(

[djhenry]

edrico, i am with you (that ,means i am with all of you)

true.... true ..........

[mynewcat]

In my opinion, the thing about the bugs in this game is that as we all suffer from the same bugs and therefore it's still balanced so it's pretty hard to complain about unfair game. I do reckon they have done a good job making it balanced but these are my top grievances:

1 - There are a couple of maps where the rocky areas aren't fair to one player - either through lack of space or through being in the middle of the map where everyone else is tucked neatly away.

2 - The Harvester thing - it does mean that without realising it you will be putting your most important units away in your enemies base. Placing the refinery marker is a bunch of arse and doesn;t work - admittedly it takes a dew seconds of micor management to sort out - but that is a few important seconds really.

3 - Air Drones - I read somewhere they weren't mean to be so fast.

4 - The fact that it is so easy to rush - Sometimes I am amazed and the fact that it is so easy to rush. What amazes me more is what actually motivates someone to rush. I always say it's like premature ejaculation. I have had soem of my most fun games lasting 3 hours where the game ebbs and flows backwards and forwards - that is why I enjoy this game. I do automatically assume a rush player is a 16 year old who has never had decent sex in his life. Why bother rushing? imagine you won every game throigh rushing and got a t-short at the end - how good would that be?

5 - The ranking system - I consider this to be random and without any merit at all. Also, the quickmatch system that palces an intermediate player like myself against a Zen master has to be a bit naff.

6 - Whingers - This one goes out to my mate (unnamed) who whinges during games. Fuck it man, it;s not THAt unbalanced.

7 - Rude people. There are a hell of a lot of people out there who have no respect for the person at the other end of the line.

8 - The Guild. They ruin the game. When I lose.

[Repoman]

Nav you only have 2 valid whinges and even that is debatable. Looking at both points relistically.

1: Harvester Problem

Rarely do the Harvesters go to the wrong spice fields, I feel that certain maps are are prone to causing harvester problems. Overall the harvester problem is very small. In my experience they have always done what they are told although i have cursed them 2 or 3 times out of the 100's and 100's of games that i have played. Of those 2 or 3 games only 1 of them i feel has cost me the game. The other 99% being my incompetence or the opponents superiority.

2: Pathfinding Problem

The only time that the pathfinding problems are a big problem is when you have a small bottleneck in which to get alot of units through. Occasionally units will make mistakes about which unit shoud go in front of the other but hey this happens in real life too. With proper micromanagement you can almost completely bypass this.

I would change certain parts of the game too but this is just my opinion.

Hark :

Flame tank needs more armour.

Gunships to much armour

Ordos :

Mortar infantry need to be toned down a touch

Laser tanks are a touch to quick

Atriedies :

Drones are great unit i just feel that all houses should have access to this type of unit making for some great air to air battles otherwise atriedes has a huge Air advantage

Overall :

The engineer concept sucks bad. How can one defenseless overpaid pussy in a white overcoat take over a building that has 1-3 infantry inside it. Those infantry that are left when a building is destroyed should be able to defend the installation from within the compounds of the building using the buildings health as their own. The engineer should only be able to take a building once the infantry inside it have been eliminated by other infantry not heavy machinery like a mino.

Fedaykin are too powerful. The weapons only need to do half of the damage that they do. On the worm riding it is cool but snipers should be able to target the fedaykin not the worm itself. Every attack in a even game should have a equal defense and there is basically no way to stop more than one worm.

Terrain in Emp is too limited. You have Sand, Rock and Infantry rock. I know that this game is based on arrakis but the maps are all very similar. Infantry should have a command that allows them to hide in ambush but the opposition should be able to see them on the radar.

Zombies should be able to mind control infantry at a distance :)

How about a game that allows you to build any of the the 3 houses or 5 subhouses

Westwood if you read this message give me a chance to stop you making these mistakes before you waste millions of dollars.

[Navaros]

Do you even play QM?

If you do I doubt you have much experience based on those comments.

If you don't notice the harvesting bugs it is because you only play a few of the maps on Emperor where they are not as prevalent, or you are not playing against good players so it doesn't matter (meaning, if you are playing skirmish games these days, 95% of the players are uber newbies who have no clue what they are doing therefore the harvesting bugs won't make a diff in those games).

And the unit pathfinding is a problem in almost every game. If *anything* is in front of Minos, buildings, rocks, your own units, enemy units... anything at all, the Mino pathfinding gets all buggered-up. Minos don't even *go* where you tell them to! When they get near the spot they are going, half of them start turning around and walking in the *opposite* direction of where they are going! I kid you not. Try using Atreides and see for yourself.

Plus, you can not use an attack-formation-move, a feature which is badly needed in Emperor. The lack of this feature means that unless you move your units up the map a few inches, stop them for a few seconds, and move them up the map again, your infantry is gonna get massacred by the enemy army because they will all get there 100 000 faster than your vehicles, and infantry vs. infantry + vehicles is no contest, obviously.

All of these are legitimate beefs with Emperor, and yes some of my unit whining may have been a bit extreme in the past, however the one thing that truly is way too overpowered is the Inkvine, since with just a few Inkvines the enemy can make most of the map almost entirely un-touchable by infantry, and this poison remains on the map long-after the Inkvines that made it have been destroyed. That's very unbalanced, and unfair. No other unit in the game has any super powers like that.

[exatreide]

[quoute]Plus, you can not use an attack-formation-move, a feature which is badly needed in Emperor. The lack of this feature means that unless you move your units up the map a few inches, stop them for a few seconds, and move them up the map again, your infantry is gonna get massacred by the enemy army because they will all get there 100 000 faster than your vehicles, and infantry vs. infantry + vehicles is no contest, obviously.[/qoute]

Hey nav ever hear of the J key? Or have you ever even looked at the hot keys? it makes you inf move with the vehicles. You dolt!

[ken124578]

navaros, the inkvine is the harkonen's ONLY long ranged vehicle if you take that away from them they're uselss vs atreides because they can't take out ur kindjall without losses, that would make the game unfair because the ordos have the kobra, the atreides the minotaur and the harkonen the inkvine.

THAT sounds fair to me, besides you can easily kill an inkvine, just use some fedaykin besides its difficult to guard an inkvine because you always have the risk of an minotaur stepping forward killing ur saws/infantry etc which could get him promoted.

[Navaros]

Ex,

Yes I know what the hotkeys are, I said there needs to be an *attack-formation-move*, which there is not. If you think it's a good idea to spend 10 or more minutes waiting for your Minos + Infantry to walk to enemy base and babysit them the whole time because if you take your eyes off them for a second then they could all be dead before you know it - then you do not understand the importance of being multi-talented in RTS games and I'm betting because of that you'd lose a lot of your games if you played online. Formation-move is insufficient, especially considering the ludicrious amount of time it takes Minos to get from point A to point B.

ken, you are right the Hark need a long range unit *but* it does not mean that it is fair for the Hark to be able to cover almost the *entire* map with toxic poison that kills infantry almost instantlly, and poison which *stays* on the map for about 5 minutes even after the Inkvines are dead. Minos and Kobras don't have toxic, infantry-killing crap that actually stays all over the map for 5 minutes. Because of that, Inkvines are way too overpowered.

[Marcel71]

The funny part about inktvine is that it was specially developed against infantery units. But a mino and Kobra kill much easier infantery units then a inktvine. You can see that when they get very fast upgraded when they kill with one shot a couple of men. The inktvine needs AT LEAST three shots to get upgraded.