Girl dies when parents pray...

[Andrew]

Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

I'm sure this topic was discussed before, but I thought I'd post a new article.

An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday

So should the parents be charged with neglect, manslaughter?

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

Yep, that is the logical reason for the childs death. I'd also attribute it to the parents beliefs. Maybe their God killed her? If they did not pray enough for their daughter to get well, do they expect to pray enough in the future? How much praying does it take to heal diabetes?

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

If I had recieved a phone call to pray, I would have called child services and have the child taken away.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

She needs to be sent to the looney bin.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

Cult?

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

Umm!? If one of the children get sick, expect them to die?

The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.

I hope for a followup article if/when the coffee shop goes out of business.

[Acriku]

I believe that if they did not seek medical help when it was required, then that's negligence. So what if they're happy go-lucky religioners. It seems that this is a case where people's faith removes them from reality. Let's put them in between nice, cushioned walls.

[Caid Ivik]

to be led astray in matters of faith doesn't mean they are mad...

[gunner154]

I wouldn't be doing that if I were them. Geez.

[Tatar Khan]

Freedom of religion doesn't superceed the right to life thus the parents ate guilty.

[Anathema]

This seems like a pretty clear cut of negligence to me.

These sort of things are an ongoing question when concerning Jehova witnesses (often in Canada, so it seems) who refuse blood transfusions for their children as well. Here we usually deal with that by relieving the parents from their "parental authority" (I don't know how what the equavalent term in English is) for the duration of the treatment. It seems like a good enough solution, wich doesn't go as far as removing kids from otherwise decent parents.

[Edric O]

This reminds me of a joke I once heard...

A priest managed to escape a sinking ship and swam to a nearby desert island. There was no water to drink on the island, but there was plenty of stuff lying around to light a fire at night, and a crate of signal flares from the ship also washed ashore on the beach.

On the first day, the priest began to pray for God to intervene to save his life. He saw another ship sailing in the distance, and he kept praying. "God, take me off this island, and I will dedicate my life to spread your Word to the far corners of the Earth." Nothing happened.

On the second day, a fleet of yachts sailed nearby, apparently engaged in a race. "Do not let me perish, Lord; I have worshipped you all my life," prayed the priest. Nothing happened.

On the third day, a helicopter flew over the island. The priest was dying of thirst, but he kept on praying. "Please, Lord, all I ask for is a drop of water." Nothing happened.

On the fourth day the priest died and went to heaven. There he met up with God and was a little annoyed. "I kept praying to you for three days and you didn't lift a finger to help me!" he complained. God was surprised. "Nothing? Um, I sent you a ship, a whole bunch of yachts and even a helicopter. What did you expect me to do, pick you up in a flying limo?"

The point is, asking God for help is one thing; expecting this help to come in the form of overt divine intervention is another thing entirely, and it is rather stupid.

[Anathema]

and it is rather stupid.

I agree with you; the problem question is to what extent people can apply their stupidity in daily life situations under the guise of religious freedom.

[Dragoon Knight]

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

...

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

Does anyone else think that this guy is an idiot?  No signs of abuse?  How about the dead CHILD?

I mean, they could argue that, since she had only been sick for 30 days, they didn't think it to be serious.  At least at first, anyway.  But there is something to be said about their parenting skills when they don't seek medical help when their daughter is clearly dying.  Is there anything in the Bible that says doctors are wrong?

[Dante]

Maybe they didn't like her.

[Tatar Khan]

Actually in Bible there is a passage where Jesus gets tempted by the Devil in the desert. He is told by the Devil to jump off the clif. If he is a Son of God than God will send angels to save him. Jesus replied that one should not only rely on God but also on oneself. (Something along those lines)

[exatreide]

Maybe they didn't like her.

That made me roflcopter and lmaonaise for some reason.

But won't you all be surprised when she arises from the dead...I Won't, then again that really never surprises me.

[Caid Ivik]

That made me roflcopter and lmaonaise for some reason.

But won't you all be surprised when she arises from the dead...I Won't, then again that really never surprises me.

yes, who says they were praying in a christian style...?

[spicy]

infect them with a deadly disease . and see what  they will do ..

1_ if they prayed and died then they are crazy but  they are too ugly to live

2_ if they seek for medial help then they are criminals and prevent them from getting it and let them suffer   

then die like they did to the poor kid

3_ if they prayed and lived then they have spiritual powers but the girl was in a bad condition

and would die anyway  .. and in that case they may live .....

sorry for being cruel but what they did is way to disgusting

[Edric O]

I agree with you; the problem question is to what extent people can apply their stupidity in daily life situations under the guise of religious freedom.

I think the answer is simple: They can do whatever they want as long as it only affects themselves. If an adult person chooses to die rather than see a doctor, well, that sucks for him, but no crime has been committed. With regards to children, religious freedom stops where physical harm begins.

Is there anything in the Bible that says doctors are wrong?

No.

[Tatar Khan]

Rights are something that is guaranteed by the government and legally the idea is that they can't be  taken away or limited. However freedoms are something that is granted by the government as so are subject to governments control and regulation. Thus the right to life of the girl overrides the freedom of religion.

[Andrew]

Praying parents' other 3 kids removed

Sadly they will be allowed to go back after the investigation.

Hopefully the children learned something. Such as praying will not heal anyone.

Ha. They cannot be charged because of the law protects people who pray.

State statute 948.03(6) provides an exemption from the law against failing to act to protect children from bodily harm for what is referred to as "Treatment through prayer." The statute says: "A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing ... in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."

link

[Acriku]

*shudder* That is scary. They should be extradited to another state to be charged  :P

[Andrew]

Faith-healing parents charged in baby's death

Different story.

Carl and Raylene Worthington were indicted Friday on charges of manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter Ava. They belong to the Followers of Christ Church, whose members have a history of treating gravely ill children only with prayer.

Ava died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection. The state medical examiner

[TMA_1]

sounds like some pretty ignorant parents.

[Edric O]

Do those articles ever explain exactly WHY these parents think medicine is evil? I mean, really, what on Earth gave them that idea?

[Andrew]

Maybe they don't think medicine is evil. Maybe they just interpreted the bible so that prayer should be able to solve all illnesses. And if they don't use prayer as the only method to cure their kids, then why bother to practice the religion?

That's like asking why someone would call themselves a Christian when they have sex before marriage, eat meat on friday, don't confess sins etc. They don't follow all the rules so they should not consider themselves to be part of a group.

[Caid Ivik]

Maybe they don't think medicine is evil. Maybe they just interpreted the bible so that prayer should be able to solve all illnesses. And if they don't use prayer as the only method to cure their kids, then why bother to practice the religion?

In fact many religions connect prayers and medicine. Christianity is quite distinctly separated from medicine at least since middle ages, so it isn't typical for it; but any society preferring mythical worldview would me more apt to turn to tradition for help in grave crisis. On the other hand, many indians called their shamans as "medicine-men", when they became fascinated by secret healing power of pills, like Asklepios, who became a deity...

[TMA_1]

lots of deluded people in this world.

It really does not shock me though, at least this story. blind prophets have always been in the business at closing the shutters of the mind. There are over six billion people in the world today, and not all of them will choose safe paths to

travel. some people are bound to follow the foolish trail blazer.

[Edric O]

Maybe they don't think medicine is evil. Maybe they just interpreted the bible so that prayer should be able to solve all illnesses. And if they don't use prayer as the only method to cure their kids, then why bother to practice the religion?

That makes no sense at all. It's like asking why bother having computers if we can't use them to drive our cars. Sure, it's technically possible to have a computer drive a car, but it's not commonplace and it is not the reason why computers exist. Likewise, it is possible for prayer to cure disease, but it's not commonplace and it is not the reason why prayer or religion exists.

That's like asking why someone would call themselves a Christian when they have sex before marriage, eat meat on friday, don't confess sins etc. They don't follow all the rules so they should not consider themselves to be part of a group.

Umm, the main rules for being a Christian are loving God and your fellow man, asking forgiveness for your sins, striving to behave in such a way that is altruistic and pleasing to God, and accepting Jesus' sacrifice for your salvation.

The three rules you mentioned are just some things added on top of basic Christianity by certain denominations. They are not universal among Christians. Two of them (fasting on fridays and confessing sins to a priest) are rejected by Protestants, for example.