European Views on America

[TMA_1]

I watched this interesting lecture on C-span last night. The scholar was discussing his book, I do believe the title was "uncouth nation". He didnt write the book as a cultural attack, in fact he was quite neutral, and brought out some interesting points on the whole matter, especially concerning the educated upper classes in western europe. He went from the topics which were at the deepest roots of american bigotry in europe, discussing things like europe's historical views towards the growing american superpower, and even going into the modern day with the neo-liberal push of economic and social policy in the E.U. That really freaked me out. Though I dont really know what the guy meant by neo-liberal. I am guessing a rough parallel would be the libertarian party over here. Or the new democrats who are socially liberal, but are growing more fiscally conservative.

He also talked about the smaller cultural quirks. He said that he noticed a great snobbery in some of the classes in different european countries. Things like thinking the common american citizen is stupid, because he or she smiles too much, and it looks vapid. Creating broad generalizations from american cinema, he even went into sports. He talked about how one year one of our soccer teams here in America did really well, and how many europeans dispised this. some felt that America was cavaleir, an upstart in a "european" pastime, that somehow americans didnt take it seriously and capriciously decided to get into the game. In fact the scholar brought out many interesting points on a feeling in europe of america being too shallow, too flighty. Like somehow america never takes anything seriously.

Now this man (forgot his name, as you guys have probably already realized) obviously wasent speaking for all western europeans, and he definitely made sure to explain the differences in class, country, and whatnot.

Still though it was interesting to hear how surprisingly unfounded the fears and bigotries were and are within european upperclasses towards america. Now I can understand the fear to an extent. Currently we can see an extremely obvious curruption within the government. The war in Iraq is taking its toll in human lives and capital. Not only this but it ties our hands up from helping people in other countries who frankly, are in much more need. This whole thing has really created a scar on America that will probably never heal. SO many things are wrong in this country, that it is hard to start at any single point for discussion.

What slays me though is the hypocricy that some eurpoeans hold to. There is this idea that capitalism is really only an american thing, and that countries in europe symbolize the only bastion of healthy socialism.

But now with the growing power of the E.U. as well as the growing power of the many western european nations, you are seeing the very same evil that so many europeans seem to spot so readily in America. I know I am generalizing bigtime here, but I smell a big double standard here somewhere. America is in no place to judge many countries in europe as far as ethics and morals go, and maybe some of these educated elites have good points, but I think that some of the things I have heard about some of these guys opinions are a bit shallow and one-dimensional. Europe seems to be committing the same capitalist sins as America. What is more horrifying is that I have heard that some european countries are trying to rid themselves of their various welfare programs, that bullshit neo-liberal crap that was mentioned earlier. A question I have is this, is it true? About an abolishing of the welfare state in some european countries.

ALso from all you non-Americans (specifically western europeans), what are your views on the american people? What are your views about our economy, our government, our alien religious stances on the state and the church.

Again want to apologize for some of my sweeping generalizations, and misstatements. If any of you guys can correct me, by all means please do so. Hope to hear from you guys. Thanks a bunch!

[Dante]

There are... some factions, that are attempting to remove/privatise the welfare state in this country. That much I know, but prefer not to research into it.

What are our views on the American people? Well... you're dumb.

Heh, sorry, couldn't resist. It's true though, as far as most people here are concerned, the average american is dumb. We see your president, that 90% of you or something don't even have a passport, that sizable chunks of your population want to abolish the teaching of evolution in schools. Flat Earth Society, the KKK, people who can't point to Korea on a map, lawsuits against microwave makers who fail to point out that you shouldn't dry gerbils in their product, Bush being RE-elected, those who can't differentiate between English and Australian accents, the popularity of fundamentalist churches... only in America. Of course there are a lot of clever people as well, but they are vastly outnumbered by the really, really stupid.

Even some of the positive aspects can work in negative ways. Those americans whom I have met in person have been among the friendliest people I've come across, which the snob in me dislikes because he wants everyone to be more subdued and less open. It's true about the smiling as well, 'vapid' is a good word. I've liked all of the americans that I've met, they seemed smart and literate, but I do keep in mind that I met them in my home country, and must be aware that they are some of the few who are aware of a world outside the borders of the USA.

In short, it's not the economy (though the pound is still stronger than the dollar, how does that work?), it's not the government (that's a whole different can of idiot worms), it's not even religion because all of these show manifestations of the same thing: DUMB.

And Europe looks down on America because it rankles seeing the stupid given so much free reign and power. Even our TV is more subtle.

Disclaimer: I'm not insulting anyone specifically, just pointing out the popular opinion here. Europe sees America as an ungrateful, uneducated, loudmouthed, self-righteous, self-absorbed child. At least, as far as I can tell. There are of course a large number of exceptions, otherwise the country wouldn't function, but they are outnumbered.

Hmm, did I go too far do you think?

[Dude_Doc]

But now with the growing power of the E.U. as well as the growing power of the many western european nations, you are seeing the very same evil that so many europeans seem to spot so readily in America.

The idea of one united Europe, I would say, is strong among most Europeans, although the form of unity is developing in the direction of neoliberalism. Everything that is the union is bad, and probably not what most of us wants, like the euro, the unhumane EU-constitution, and so on.

A question I have is this, is it true? About an abolishing of the welfare state in some european countries.

I think that we had, and still have, a good welfare system where I live. But it is going to disappear in the future, no doubt. Most people in my country seems to lay socialism behind and bet most of their money on business. Simply said, it is only a matter of time.

[nemafakei]

When you think you have been approached by an American tourist, it is not polite or helpful to immediately begin an invective against the US. Correct procedure is to make subtle inquiries to discern their exact provenance. Only when you are quite sure that you are not dealing with a Canadian, should you commence your assault.

Neoliberalism generally refers to the privatisation of public services. A particularly good example is the privatisation of water in Bolivia. In order to appease the IMF and World Bank (organisations with vested interests in privatisation) who pretty much held the country to ransom, the government put all rights to water supply up for sale. The free market being the wonderful thing it is, Bechtel became the proud owner of every drop of rain that fell in Bolivia, instituted massive price hikes for no reasons but its own, and installed water meters in every home it could, even those who had dug their own well. The people rose up to demand an end to this, and water was renationalised (though not before the government had shot a good few of its own people, governments being what the are). Former president de Lozada has absconded with millions of dollars of state money and now resides in the US.

In western countries, there's a bit of a difference: neoliberalism isn't quite as devastating, as usually, the investors are home-grown rather than foreign (neo-colonial) powers. Though they still find themselves tax havens to flee to in the end.

The EU situation is... complicated. The EU as an institution is pretty neoliberal, far more so than most of its member states, in fact, but it prefers to enforce neoliberalism on other people. There's a general mistrust of the EU amongst many of its people, and I'd definitely say that in Britain the xenophobia towards European rivals is at least as great as that toward the US; likewise toward certain other European cultures. Hell, we're prejudiced enough even within our own kingdom, never mind outside it.

NB to all posters: Please distinguish carefully between statements about the US government, statements about the American people, statements about American culture, statements about European perceptions of Americans/their culture/their government, and statements about European people/Government/culture. The mods are watching.

[Andrew]

No problem with Americans. Just the ones that think they are the center of the universe. Also the American political system kinda sucks (at least on a federal level). But that is probably because it is so large it is impossible to control. Are there any other full/western democracies in the world with a population of 300+ million (japan?)?

Nobody like Bush (well maybe Christians who hate abortions and gays, and racists who think all "brown" people are terrorists).

[TMA_1]

Wow. I dont see how the people could stand for all these sorts of neoliberal ideals. Privatization of water?  ...thats inhuman... owning water seems really barbaric to me.

Why have all these neoliberal powerhouses taken such control? How have they taken this much control? Why has all this stuff happened without really being checked? Who is watching these powers? Who are these powers? Where is the oversight? What the hell??

can someone please direct me to some sort of watchdog website?

[alchemi2]

What are our views on the American people? Well... you're dumb.

That really says it all, rightly or wrongly it is the general view of the American populace. Obviously there are plenty of Americans that are not at all dumb, arrogant or closed to world in which they live but the image that's often portrayed to the rest of us is that one.

Americans are seen to rewrite history, dumb down movies of books and not understand the world outside USA.

Afterall they have the WORLD series of baseball that only involves themselves.

[Dude_Doc]

Why have all these neoliberal powerhouses taken such control? How have they taken this much control? Why has all this stuff happened without really being checked? Who is watching these powers? Who are these powers? Where is the oversight? What the hell??

Globalization, my friend.

can someone please direct me to some sort of watchdog website?

http://archive.corporatewatch.org/ ?

[Caid Ivik]

In Slovakia we see America north of Rio Grande as a distant land, with very small, overpowerful elites and poorly educated, unintelligent masses, altough the material living standard is perceived as fascinatively high. And they seem to love generalizations (well, this is such one too ;) ). Latin America is for us something like Thailand, some kind of chaotic continent with corrupt governments, powerful mafias and growing slums. Personally, I wasn't there, but of what I know people from there they didn't seemed to be spawned by either a 'culture of dumbness' or on 'slum battlefields', to give another generalization.

But Slovaks, who go there, usually tend to lose a bit of their character when stay too long.

[Egeides]

I think that it goes from "they're as anyone else" to "bellicose and ignorant sofa dwellers". Or it's "they don't know the world but tell others".

I saw some who were travelling. In some cases, they could be seen as bold: loud voice, standing out, etc. It can look self-agrandizing, especially in cultures valuing discretion. There're some people I could expect to be American like this, but one stands out and the others couldn't just all be extroverted. And it's not really simply "bold", just some who are outward in their way.

In other cases, some seemed to stick more to their stuff and people too. But I don't know, it's no complete info and it's never black/white with human free choice. One was happy to find "real food" (McDonald) in Italy. It made me smile. But just extremes fit stereotypes + people love their own food. Maybe there's a context of "us vs. others" (medias...) affecting some who deal with it their way. I met a guy who went in Texas and mentioned how welcoming they were, how no stereotype made much sense.

Just for the heck of it, I think that I'll stick an American flag on my bag next time I go wherever. Should be fun.

[nemafakei]

Yeah, that's the other thing. Stereotypes are always the ones that stick out. You don't form your opinion of Americans based on the quiet ones, partly because you don't notice them so much, but largely because you don't know they're American.

[Acriku]

Working at a store in a tourist area (Orlando FL), I haven't come across any hostility. Now that may be because I'm right there in person but I would like to think that the majority of the people are friendly towards the American people. They can't wait to make fun of our policies though!  :P

[Khan]

Well I don't know about the rest of Europe but Brits are certainly far too polite to be hostile to their face, we just speak about how uncouth they are when they're gone, or do it on the internet where no one can get us. Besides you probably aren't the stereotypical American that we all hate so, unless you're very different in real life than you come across online.

Most people don't have any problems with Americans they meet and get to know, it's just the one's who are brashly out spoken that you just can't avoid, the most annoying Americans though are obviously the one's who try to talk to you on the tube, they just have no sense of place.

Americans are just unfortunate enough that volume seems to be inversely proportionate to content.

[nemafakei]

"are obviously the one's who try to talk to you on the tube, they just have no sense of place."

Hell, yeah, don't they know that interrupting the morbid orwellian atmosphere of the tube is forbidden by law? The other summer, some cleverclogs started telling jokes, it got all round the whole transport system by mid-morning, and MI5 had to blow up three tube carriages and a bus just to restore order.

[ordos45]

that 90% of you or something don't even have a passport

Of course our nation also dwarfs many European nations.  If I had so many other small nations around mine' date=' I would have a passport.  As it is, that should soon change, as at the end of this year, Americans will be unable to visit even Canada without a passport due to the Administration's new "security" policies.

people who can't point to Korea on a map

Dante I hate to break it to you, but one study we looked at in my high school Political Science class four years ago showed 30% of high school seniors here couldn't point out the United States of America on a map...a labeled map.

But thanks for pointing out all of those reasons.  Always nice to read everyone's opinions, it's rather enlightening.  :)

[Megashrap]

Working at a store in a tourist area (Orlando FL), I haven't come across any hostility. Now that may be because I'm right there in person but I would like to think that the majority of the people are friendly towards the American people. They can't wait to make fun of our policies though!  :P

I once worked at Disney years ago for a short time. Any given day, that has to be the most diverse spot on the entire planet,as strange as it sounds it was a smooth non-hostile place. Although as a parent, it's a nightmare for your patience. ;)

It just depends were you travel around too as with any other country. I mean I can go 15 miles down the road in certain spots full-well knowing in advance I may get shot at possibly.

[veK]

 

[chatfsh]

Just so you know, you all come off sounding much like the older, homely sibling who

[Egeides]

Well... whattever the opinion one has, it's gonna soung like something to some "opposite" opinion groups. It's just as predictable, but having access to previously unmet inputs could just bring a better map.

I remember someone who gave a pro-Bush view resumed in 15 seconds. It would have been more enlightening on international TV than some whole report.

ps.views here can be incomplete sketches, mind the gap

[Khan]

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Popular?

[Davidu]

Well, here is quite the same opinion: dumb, trigger happy, agrresive, and with a high life standard.

But, on the other hand, we always made jokes about the superpower that had an impact on us. First the turks then the russians.

I talked to people that went in the US, and they didn't have a very good opinion either. They saw it as quite lawless.

Maybe the fact that any madman can carry a gun legally on the street scares the shit out of us.

On the other hand it's the place to make money.

Now, you should ask what europeans think about eatchother  ;D that would be hilarious! Because mainly no one can stand their neighbors.

And, yes, as someone pointed out, opinions are formed by generalisation after the political decisions, films, music, books, etc etc, and each american film is full of shooting, violence, explosions and so on... So to speak, you are not making a very good impression on the people.

We're not very fond of the EU either, because no one knows exactly what laws will it bring us. So, it's kind of chaos because it's full of rumors, each grimmer than the other.

[Wolf]

Having just lived in London for 6 months, I've got a little thesis for everyone. First, to be followed up by a few facts;

Countries visited -- 7 (UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Monaco)

Cases of "anti-Americanism" -- 0

So, I really don't think that we dislike each other that much, or that there's any big problem here, but... here goes;

The United States of America is Europe's unwanted. It represents, and is indeed for the most part composed of, those elements of society that were purged from the European continent from North America's discovery to the present-day. Beginning with English settlers, who were mainly nonconformist religious dissidents, and continuing on towards masses of German and Italian poor (indeed, 71% of American counties have a German-ethnic majority), the Irish in the 1840s, and so on until the present-day. In some ways, the United States represents those who were forcibly kicked-out of their homes (Greeks, Poles, etc.) or those for whom it was made clear that no one wanted them around (Irish, Central Prussian Germans at certain points, etc.). In any case, the population of much of the United States are the successful descendants of those who looked at Europe and said, "there has to be someplace better" or those who were looked at by Europe and it was said of them "eewwwww." Just how successful? That the United States can accomplish economically the same and militarily more with only about half the population of Europe. And, even worse, that it grows while (arguably) Europe staggers. Americans are the unwanted children of Europe come back to haunt them -- because what do we think of when we think of Americans? Certainly not the indigenous peoples who were here long before North America was on the map.

I can see how that would rankle. This is all obviously something too cerebreal and thought-needing to be something that one consciously thinks when he looks at an American if he is European, but I think there's something to it. The United States, for all intents and purposes, is a Western European country -- in terms of society, industry, make-up, attitudes, etc. Now, before you all explode at me and force me back into hiding for another year or so, bear in mind that the differences between America and Britain are about the same in magnitude as the differences between Britain and "the Continent." Or, at least the differences you perceive as being there. Those are pretty negligible degrees of separation, if you ask me.

[gunner154]

I'm really envious of most of you. Heck, make it all. People in Singapore are so full of apathy that what really goes on in America doesn't really bother them. No one even talks about Americans. The only thing most people here seem to know is that a good number of Americans cannot point to Singapore on the map, or think that Singapore is in China, and most seem to take some sort of pride in that. No surprise, pretty much everyone knows where America is - at least it's supposed to easier to find than Malaysia on the map.

Stereotypes on Americans are formed mainly in articles in newspapers, which people don't really talk about. Yet, these don't really talk about America itself - they go under the guise of "On Globalisation" and similar stuff. We learn about the fast food generation and McWorld and the like, and so many of us start thinking that lots of Americans are fat. We don't really have a major stereotype on American people, apart from how rich their lifestyles are.

We do have a lot to say about the President, though. Having a lot of people condemning the war and a political leader supporting it don't really help the confused population very much. With America, it's Bush, Iraq, terrorism, McDonald's, Hollywood, Materialism, not knowing where Singapore is and, if you're lucky, the whole unhappiness with China's currency.

It's a lot worse with Europe. I haven't heard anyone mention anything about Europe for a very long time, and if ever, just briefly mentioning Switzerland and UK. Oxbridge is something Singaporeans are very familiar with when it comes to UK, and the rest of Europe seems to be represented by UK, nevermind the EU. We are too concerned with property prices now.

[Egeides]

gunner:

The way you describe it, your place seems very inwardly oriented, keeping to the Singapore business and daily stuff.

Wolf:

I also tend to think that there's a British-EU difference. But there's definitely a difference between both sides of the Atlantic too. And maybe it connects directly with what you wrote here, Europeans going more with some acquired ways and Americans going more "self-made" style with the traits you wrote about (pro-change self-taught immigration guy <-> haunting the rooted folks).

And welcome on our boards, Wolf. Oh damn.. you're not new ;)

[Wolf]

Well, that's just it -- Eddie Izzard kind of references this when he talks about how countries sort of have a "national character," if we can talk about that.

All of the American "national characteristics" are things they inherited from various European cultures and societies. "British" mercantilism, "German" technical skill, "Italian" machismo -- with this kind of added-stereotype that Americans are "self-made," more or less a polite term for "gung-ho." This is getting back to me saying that the US, save for the obvious degrees of separation, is at its roots a Western European country. I mean, this is especially true in terms of its general, mainstream social and political values.

Of course, you might all think that national stereotypes are complete bs and not worth talking about. That's fine, but I think there's some merit there.

Egeides; Awww, thanks for the welcome! I was looking for some new boards and I stumbled across this Dune thing. What is it, anyway, like a movie or something? ;)