Language Thread

[Acriku]

Partly because I need to break out of my lurking mode, I want to create a language thread. How many languages do we speak at Fed2k?

I also want to know if anyone knows Japanese and wouldn't mind helping me through it. ;)

Currently, I speak only English and a little Japanese.

[veK]

I do speak or understand:

- german

- english

- a little bit french (learnt it @ school, but never liked it and don't speak it - but I can understand a bit)

I also want to learn spanish. unfortunately I have no time for this...

[Cyborg]

I know "Scandinavian" (Norwegian, Danish and Swedish), English, German and understands more than a little Dutch.

[Edric O]

I speak Romanian, English, and French.

[Mihail]

I speak Latvian, Russian, English, and I want to learn French. Mind starting me out a bit, Edric? That is if it doesn't bother you.  :) I found lots of sites on how to learn French, but hearing the bascis from a real person rather than reading them on About.com would be much more...reassuring, so to speak.

[The_Sadukar]

Well like Cyborg I too can understand Danish, Swedish and Norwegian. The latter two takes a bit of getting used to though, and a bit of help from Cyborg if it's Nynorsk. That aside I speak English, this should be obvious by now ;) I understand a bit of German and I technically understand Italian (Though I often claim I do not)

[Timenn]

I speak English and a little bit of Dutch.

[alchemi2]

English (Should we really need/learn anything else!) :O ;)

Speak and read some French.

Due to work i can speak and understand certain phrases like good evening, name, address, signature, have fun, in a number of languages Chinese, Polish, Italian, German, Iranian to name but a few.

oh and my kids are trying to get me to learn Spanish due to the whole Dora thing. :D 

[veK]

English (Should we really need/learn anything else!) :O ;)

nope. It'd be great if everybody just learned english right away as native language. no need for other languages. I totally agree...

[Acriku]

nope. It'd be great if everybody just learned english right away as native language. no need for other languages. I totally agree...

I agree as a starting language, but some languages are so historical and poetic that you can't leave them out. Spanish is absolutely not what I have in mind lol... I like in Joss Whedon's (creator of Firefly, Buffy, and Angel series) world of Firefly where he envisions everyone knowing a mix of Chinese and English, although I forget if that means Mandarin or Cantonese... Most likely Mandarin. Englarin. There you go ;)

[exatreide]

English

4 years of German (Can read novels with some understand)

half a year of french so far, can congegate er verbs lol.

[Edric O]

Each language carries with it a body of literature, philosophy and political thought. I am concerned that the dominant international status of English will serve to promote Anglo-Saxon political thought - which is about as liberal and capitalist as they come.

From a purely political standpoint, if I had to pick a language to replace English as the international lingua franca, I would probably pick German. Communism was born in Germany, after all. Proletarier aller L

[Acriku]

Each language carries with it a body of literature, philosophy and political thought. I am concerned that the dominant international status of English will serve to promote Anglo-Saxon political thought - which is about as liberal and capitalist as they come.

From a purely political standpoint, if I had to pick a language to replace English as the international lingua franca, I would probably pick German. Communism was born in Germany, after all. Proletarier aller L

[Edric O]

Hitler spoke German.

Yes, but fortunately he didn't exactly leave behind a large body of literature.

[Acriku]

Yes, but fortunately he didn't exactly leave behind a large body of literature.

Hm. An attempt to playfully enrage you was unsuccessful. Shall I just call you a nazi then?

Anyway, it is true that with a language comes with biases towards certain dominant philosophies that have transformed the language, but hardly of any significant concern. All the more reason, though, to have more than one language known. Certain things are best described in one than the other.

[alchemi2]

Each language carries with it a body of literature, philosophy and political thought. I am concerned that the dominant international status of English will serve to promote Anglo-Saxon political thought - which is about as liberal and capitalist as they come.

Surely translation doesn't change the politics behind the language, otherwise I wasted a lot of time reading all that Marxist, Trotskite stuff in English and didn't we invent the printing press which helped to make all this reading go on.

A recent survey stated that the British as a nation buy and read more books than any other.

What's is wrong with a our liberal society, We have a lot more freedom and rights than many other countries, that is one of the reasons why so many of you foreign bods want to come here.

[Timenn]

Don't forget humour. Humour is different for every country's language, it's not just only the country it comes from that determines the style but also the language used.

Lucky for me, both languages I can speak have very well developed humour, so that is quality and quantity!

[Caid Ivik]

Each language carries with it a body of literature, philosophy and political thought. I am concerned that the dominant international status of English will serve to promote Anglo-Saxon political thought - which is about as liberal and capitalist as they come.

From a purely political standpoint, if I had to pick a language to replace English as the international lingua franca, I would probably pick German. Communism was born in Germany, after all. Proletarier aller L

[Edric O]

Surely translation doesn't change the politics behind the language, otherwise I wasted a lot of time reading all that Marxist, Trotskite stuff in English and didn't we invent the printing press which helped to make all this reading go on.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those people who think that language carries with it "the soul of a nation" or any such mystical mumbo-jumbo. I'm only saying that some texts are easier to find in one language than another, and some texts are more popular in one culture than another. The dominant position of the English language is making English writers more popular than Polish writers, for example. This is true even for translations; you think Harry Potter could have achieved such worldwide popularity if the original was written in Polish? People would have observed this new phenomenon in Poland, but few would have thought of introducing it to their own countries. English books get translated into other languages. Polish books don't. I'm sure Poland has great writers, but I can't name a single one of them. Even for more dominant languages, like French and German, I can only name great writers from history. I have no idea what's going on in those cultures today. But everyone knows what's going on in American culture today.

What's is wrong with a our liberal society, We have a lot more freedom and rights than many other countries, that is one of the reasons why so many of you foreign bods want to come here.

We can talk more about this in PRP. :) But I'd like to point out that the main reason why people come to Britain (or anywhere else in Europe and North America, for that matter) is money. They want higher wages than they can get back home. For many immigrants, that's their only reason for moving. Freedom and rights only matter to those who come from particularly repressive dictatorships.

Anyway, it is true that with a language comes with biases towards certain dominant philosophies that have transformed the language, but hardly of any significant concern. All the more reason, though, to have more than one language known. Certain things are best described in one than the other.

See above. I am not claiming that the English language itself has any bias. I think languages are neutral. I'm only saying that English speakers have certain biases, and the dominant role of their language is giving their opinions more weight over the opinions of other people.

So you like german, hm  ;)

English is an easy, modular language, able to adapt any word or grammatical category. Latin was a perfect for such a language, but it lacked many often used phonetic elements (what still irritates me today, when I have to write 'sh' in my name, because this latinocentric space usually knows no specific sign for it...) to remain in such position. There is a potential to become a universal speach in written arabic or spanish, but german has too rigid structure, and yet without the ornamental beauty of slavic or turkish languages, or at least multiplicity of possibilites of saying the same sentence like chinese, which would make it at least pleasant to hear or speak. Germans also prefer to create own words for various concepts instead of assimilating foreign ones in a phonetic way.

They don't understand the word 'liberty' as a positive thing, an ability to act autonomously. They have only 'Freiheit', or 'Unabhangigkeit', both signing more just a negative concept of liberty ('independence'). Thus one could say, every new word has to somehow follow the traditional means of creating them, otherwise it isn't accepted. If you try to use an internationalism in a german-speaking country when speaking to a native, they can't stop searching for a 'right german equivalent'. I don't say it marks a characteristics of their nature, but surely it is present in their philosophy. 'Freiheit' is always a stronger word than 'Autonomie'. It's a language of a proud nation, they hate any change in it, for it means a loss of their 'deutschprachiges Raum' for another language. It has merits as well, that's why we can read works of Leibniz after 300 years without much problem...

It's not really the language itself that I like (after all, I can't actually speak German) - it's the political and philosophical culture embraced by the majority of native speakers of that language. By the way, French came a close second when I was thinking of my choice for an international language.

[Caid Ivik]

Then, considering your ideals, you should have already learned chinese ;)

[gryphon]

English books get translated into other languages. Polish books don't. I'm sure Poland has great writers, but I can't name a single one of them.

That's what I like . . . ever seen the film Solaris ?

Combine a Google and IMDB search for it with Amazon.co.uk and you will find that the writer is Stanislaw Lem. Which you might guess. Is Polish. Extend the search to his life and you might learn he is one of the most known non-English sci-fi writers.

The guy was also in Wired ones which is now just another magazine copy on my bookshelf.

Even for more dominant languages, like French and German, I can only name great writers from history. I have no idea what's going on in those cultures today. But everyone knows what's going on in American culture today.

Please have the curtesy not to confuse your own lack of general knowledge and generalise it to every one else or even the majority to conclude that the USoA is the only current real source of literature.

And yes the American Culture has a large influance on the world. Then the opposite also applies.

@Acriku

How's that for playful enragement ;)

[veK]

the nice thing about english is that the vocabulary is so extensive. Also it sounds pretty cool and you can do a lot more playing with the words.

I also like the different accents very much (I just love desmond's accent e.g. - you know, desmond from lost. though josh holloway's character is still my favourite).

german is not that bad for some stuff, because you can also do alot of stuff with the language. but the grammar is very complicated (I already gave some examples in a different topic if I remember correctly) although this wouldn't matter that much if it was everybodies native language. but even then it could be much more simple. the thing is: it doesn't sound good. I also think all the languages from eastern europe suck (no offense to you guys living there) - they sound so very hard and unfriendly and not as soft and flowing as spanish or italian or stuff like that.

but I have another question: do you think there would be less trouble and conflicts in the world if we only had 1 language?

of course there would still be different cultures but I think there are a lot of problems due to misunderstanding (I don't mean big international wars (although there might be some serious translation errors in some important documents which could heat up everything a bit more) but smaller conflicts like with companies, smaller groups of people...

[MrFlibble]

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of those people who think that language carries with it "the soul of a nation" or any such mystical mumbo-jumbo.

Mind you that the "mystical mumbo-jumbo", as you put it, was once a widespread and important idea in linguistics (strongly associated with the works of Wilhelm von Humboldt, by the way), and its presence defined the course of development of linguistic thought up to the modern cognitive studies. But I still have to agree that nowadays the idea of the "the soul of a nation" implied in a language is vague and possibly misleading.

By the way, French came a close second when I was thinking of my choice for an international language.

Hey, French has already been an international language... But it's not there anymore. In any case, the choice of a language for international communication depends on political circumstances rather than purely linguistic features.

but I have another question: do you think there would be less trouble and conflicts in the world if we only had 1 language?

of course there would still be different cultures but I think there are a lot of problems due to misunderstanding (I don't mean big international wars (although there might be some serious translation errors in some important documents which could heat up everything a bit more) but smaller conflicts like with companies, smaller groups of people...

A monolingual world is theoretically not impossible, but it will be difficult to achieve. Generally speaking, to get the world use one language, you will have to create a homogeneous cultural space for this sole language to exist. Otherwise, even if a universal language is introduced, there's a high probability of it evolving into local dialects and then separate languages over time (as it happened to the Indo-European language, or to the Nostratic language, if we hold the Nostratic hypothesis for true). Therefore, one culture = one language, and, of course, having only one culture would remove or at least reduce the probability of inter(sub)cultural conflicts. Maybe the globalizing tendencies will make this model come true? Time will tell.

[Edric O]

Gryphon, I do believe that the overwhelming majority of people do not know who Stanislaw Lem was. Most of my friends didn't even know who Isaac Asimov or Frank Herbert were until I told them. Sci-fi writers in general are rather obscure; Polish sci-fi writers, even more so.

Remember, I didn't say that Polish literature was bad. On the contrary, I said it probably doesn't get the recognition it deserves, precisely because Polish is not an international language.

@Acriku

How's that for playful enragement ;)

You failed. :P

Mind you that the "mystical mumbo-jumbo", as you put it, was once a widespread and important idea in linguistics (strongly associated with the works of Wilhelm von Humboldt, by the way), and its presence defined the course of development of linguistic thought up to the modern cognitive studies. But I still have to agree that nowadays the idea of the "the soul of a nation" implied in a language is vague and possibly misleading.

What can I say - I tend to be very dismissive of the theories I oppose. ;) I'm no expert in linguistics, of course (perhaps an intervention from Nema is in order), but the notion of each culture having some kind of separate understanding of the world that shows up in their language... well, that sounds like an outgrowth of 19th century romantic nationalism.

Hey, French has already been an international language... But it's not there anymore. In any case, the choice of a language for international communication depends on political circumstances rather than purely linguistic features.

Very true.

A monolingual world is theoretically not impossible, but it will be difficult to achieve. Generally speaking, to get the world use one language, you will have to create a homogeneous cultural space for this sole language to exist. Otherwise, even if a universal language is introduced, there's a high probability of it evolving into local dialects and then separate languages over time (as it happened to the Indo-European language, or to the Nostratic language, if we hold the Nostratic hypothesis for true). Therefore, one culture = one language, and, of course, having only one culture would remove or at least reduce the probability of inter(sub)cultural conflicts. Maybe the globalizing tendencies will make this model come true? Time will tell.

You are right. I believe we will eventually get a universal culture and language, because there has been a trend towards homogenization of cultures for the past 1000 years, and I do not see this trend stopping any time soon. If anything, it is accelerating.

Before any kind of universal language can develop, however, I think we will see the rise of continental languages. Europe, for example, will most likely become a single political unit in the 21st century, and a few centuries down the line it is likely that the European languages will merge. (creating "Neo-Indo-European", perhaps? or just "Neo-European"?)

[gryphon]

The point you wanted to make was based on the lack of your (or the general public for that matter) knowledge about foreign literature. The fact that you or you friends do not know current non-USoA writers does not imply that they aren’t any or that English is the best language to write a best selling novel in.

Nor does your claim the dominant position of the English language is making English writers more popular than Polish writers, for example. hold up. Again your lack of knowledge about Polish or non-USoA writers does not imply their aren’t any. You are only emphasizing the fact that all (is not most) great stories will eventually be translated into English at which point every one knows about them and might think the authors are English.

You did indeed not say that Polish literature was or is bad. Only that English writers are more popular then non-English writers. Which is a claim that doesn’t hold up. You can only conclude that all reasonably good and well known publications will be translated into English.

Unless you think that Nochnoy dozor, La Femme Nikita, Manifest der Kommunistischen Partei (which clearly you will know ;) ) and Die Unendliche Geschichte all originate from English writers.

I agree that the overwhelming majority of people do not know who Stanislaw Lem was. like you mentioned. Then that tell’s me more about the majority of people then it does about the absents of good and well knows non-English stories. Not knowing about a thing does not disprove it’s existence.

you think Harry Potter could have achieved such worldwide popularity if the original was written in Polish

Further more, still one of the best selling books was written in a language non of us speaks or listens to any more. Yet it’s the worlds best selling book. 

Back on topic.

Dutch, Flemish, French, German, English, more or less Danish (thanks to NaMp ;) ) and Italian just enough to get what I want which usually isn't that much. :P