Israel Issues

Purge · August 1, 2006

Don't mistake "refugees" who never left the evacuation areas for the specified REFUGES offering food, aid, etc. to evacuees. These are people who also had to leave their things, and valued life over pride or possessions. Not everyone in southern Lebanon is guilty, but everyone in southern Lebanon is in danger of being hurt and killed, and that is the fact of the matter. Calls for evacuation were made, that is the fact of the matter. NOW all these things have been bombed. AFTER the warning. You can cite everything that no longer works as an excuse for people being there, but you are ignoring that they had the chance to leave, and were asked to, BEFORE those things were ruined.

And I'm not talking about you pleading ignorance, I am saying nobody in southern Lebanon can claim they weren't asked or warned to leave. What happened next is very sad and unfortunate, but they wouldn't be dead if they had left when they were told to. There is no excuse for not leaving. Hezbollah is firing hundreds of rockets and missiles into Israel every night. The people knew it was coming, and when they were told to evacuate to safer ground, for the most part they did.

nemafakei · August 1, 2006

"Don't mistake "refugees" who never left the evacuation areas for the specified REFUGES offering food, aid, etc. to evacuees."

I'm not.

"NOW all these things have been bombed. AFTER the warning."

When was the warning you're thinking of?

"And I'm not talking about you pleading ignorance, I am saying nobody in southern Lebanon can claim they weren't asked or warned to leave."

Ok. I don't know either way, and I didn't think it was worth arguing about. I don't know who's claiming they weren't warned, and I don't know why you've even brought it up, so I'm just a little confused on this point.

Purge · August 1, 2006

Despite Hezbollah, Lebanon, and others claiming Hezbollah isn't attacking Israel from cities and civillian areas, and that Israel is just indiscriminately targeting Lebanese civillians:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html

They are rotten liars, and it sickens me how much benefit of the doubt they are receiving, despite indiscriminately firing hundreds of rockets into Israel every night.

Wolf · August 2, 2006

I think its funny that Israel catches more criticism for a provoked border action and tactical airstrike than the US gets for a largely unprovoked (unless you count 9/11) full-scale invasion and long-term military occupation. Though to be sure, both nations got heaping, heaping portions of criticism and general venom despite the fact that their opponents -- Hezbollah and the Rt. Hon. Saddam Hussein -- were hardly mentioned, if at all, and never critically. What, one UN official says, "Well, of course Hezbollah shouldn't use civilians as human shields, that's also against the Geneva convention" and that quote is hidden after 8 paragraphs of more intense criticism for Israel? I would argue that the real disproportionate response is how the media is spinning events. It's even hiding more insane things, like that French foreign minister who referred to Mahmoud's administration in Iran as "the greatest stablizing force in the region" and Russia's classificaiton of Hezbollah and Hamas as not-terrorist groups. You have to wonder what planet these people are all on, and I've just about formed the opinion that if you're not 50 miles from an event, you 0 right to talk about it.

nemafakei · August 2, 2006

On proportionality of criticism: I'm quite happy to say that Hezbollah is a despicable organisation. No-one's likely to disagree if I say it, and that'll be that. On the other hand, if I criticise the actions of the IDF, there would be those like you who disagree, therefore we have a debate. Just because I criticise Olmert and Co. doesn't mean I have the slightest respect for Nasrallah's mob.

If there's anyone prepared to defend the Iranian government or the French FM, I'll be happy to debate them, by the way.

Edric O · August 2, 2006

I think one of the reasons Israel gets most of the criticism is because they keep winning. It's a bit pointless to criticize the losing side, isn't it? Especially if they keep losing over and over again - people begin to feel sorry for them.

And yes, international opinion is over-sensitive about Israel. (And the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict - how come you never hear about the various civil wars in Africa that routinely kill more people than Israel and Hezbollah? Granted there's a lot fewer of those than there used to be - I think it's down to a handful - but still.)

As for the... creative statements made by some diplomats, well, the ruling class in every country will become best buddies with whoever shares its interests, and will then proceed to come up with a good reason why their new friends are righteous, freedom-loving and democratic.

Dunenewt · August 2, 2006

First of all, I don't have a Jewish leader, I'm English. Second of all, how the fuck are Jews morally wrong? Thirdly, there is no Jewish race. You might believe in some kind of "Master Race" but then again, you fail to realise that Judaism is a religion not a race. The Druze serve in the IDF as well, and they're not Jewish. What's so wrong with the Israelis? Is it because they don't strap bombs to their children and send them on buses? Is it because they show restraint? Y'know Israel has nuclear weapons, if it really wanted to wipe out Palestine, it could do pretty easily.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Aug 2, 2006 2:17 PM
Adolf? Ooh.. original.
Who said anything about me wanting to kill Jews?
Just because I disagree with their actions, and because they are morally wrong and lie consistently to try and withold their daily murders from the rest of the world.
Why don't you go look at your own book of numbers and see how many of your Jewish leaders married outside of the race? Jews are part of a mongrel race, just like everyone else.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Aug 2, 2006 6:39 PM
(here I quoted Purge's "essay" earlier")
And listen up Adolf, just because my friend is in the IDF doesn't make him a Jew.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Aug 2, 2006 10:08 AM
The Jews were led out of Mesopotamia by Abraham and so they are really from Iraq. Your Jewish friends are originally from Iraq. The Arabs were there first as the Canaanites were the original occupiers. I think you should get your facts straight. Have you personally ever been there? Have you ever lived amongst the people there? The Jews took their houses away from them, leaving them with only the keys to their front doors. They're not even allowed to look at their houses. They've been forced to live in refugee camps in Lebanon for about sixty years.
If you are reduced to personal insults then you've already lost the argument.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Aug 2, 2006 12:41 PM
Looks like you know jack shit about history then. Tell me, which came first, the Jews or the Muslims? The Jews of course, and now the Islamic Palestinians are trying to kill every Israeli, because "the Jews are taking Arab land". What a load of bullshit!. My family has been living out there too. My best mates parents are there now doing charity work. Hell, I've even got friends in the Israeli Army. Get your biased facts straight little girl. Palestine is run by a terrorist organisation called HAMAS. You might want to research a bit about Hamas, and what they get up to, before you bother to message me again.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Aug 2, 2006 1:25 AM
Somehow I think I know alot more than you do, matey. I've lived over there, we have friends out there. We've taught out there the refugees.
I actually dislike you so much.
Don't think that you know everything because you know some of the language. Everyone is so biased nowadays and don't know the whole story. Oh yeah. You're studying them next yeah, ey? We are studying them now.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 10:39 PM
You're dead wrong. Why don't you go over to Lebanon and join Hezbollah? I'm studying Arabic and Arab Studies at university next year. I know quite a lot more on the subject than you. And besides, Israel always wins.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 2:30 PM
Nah you're wrong.
Whereas I'm right :)
I'm not going to argue with you as you and I both know that I am correct.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 10:25 PM
How about you're wrong. The Jews were there first, so maybe those fucking Palestinians should learn some respect, and stop being so fucking racist and intent on genocide, and then maybe Israel would so generous as to give them a bit of land back. Not that they deserve it. They strap bombs on their children and then send them on buses to kill innocent Israelis.
Scum.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 2:18 PM
How about - let's free palestine?
How about i'm right?
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 10:14 PM
How about no?
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 2:12 PM
whats that?
free
palestine?
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=43887558'>Chris</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 10:00 PM
Fuck no until they recognise the existance of Israel and are content with the Gaza Strip and West Bank.
----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: <A HREF='http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=27408598'>rosie j</a>
Date: Jul 31, 2006 1:56 PM
free palestine yeh?

Conversation between me and some Nazi. Strange, none of her friends knew she'd lived there.

Thought you might find it interesting.

nemafakei · August 2, 2006

Um, Newt, I don't think you did yourself a good service there.

Purge · August 2, 2006

She is off on her information. It would help if people educated themselves before taking hard stances either way.

Wolf · August 3, 2006

Well, we've also got people throwing around the term "proxy war," I believe they mean between Iran and the United States. Though, to be quite honest, I just view this whole Israel-Lebanese conflict as the Iranians buying themselves time. By fueling Hezbollah to fight Israel with rockets and other weapons, and by diplomatically serving as a choke point in the peace process, they hope to keep the battle in the Middle East burning until at least 2008 when, they hope, a friendlier US administration is elected, or, the United States pulls out from Iraq. Iran hopes to dominate the Middle East by the end of this decade, and in order to do that it requires the removal of a significant US or other Western diplomatic or military presence. By destabilizing Israel, Iran erodes further damaged US diplomatic capital, and by fueling the Iraqi insurgency -- c'mon folks, it's real obvious, they fought a 10 year war with Iraq and have no problem seeing Iraqis die by the bushel -- they serve to promote the removal of US forces from the region. Regardless of whether or not Israel wins, and provided that the United States leaves Iraq by 2010, Iran will be poised to be the dominant regional power of the Middle East. And, as we approach 2050, the year when the world's supply of oil will be completely depleted, that is altogether too frightening an idea for me to contemplate. Or any Westerner, for that matter -- please understand, the President of Iran denied the Holocaust existed and on top of it all is developing nuclear weapons.

VigilVirus · August 3, 2006

I find it amusing how quickly that argument degraded into "Uh huh" and "Nuh uh" ;D.

Comparing people to Nazis generally doesn't help your case either.

You might find this to be useful:

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20060405.html

;)

Mihail · August 3, 2006

This man makes an interesting point:

Mr Shalhub vigorously denied that any Hezbollah fighters were present in or around the home when the attack took place.
"All four roads to Qana village had been cut by Israeli bombs' date='" he said, which would have made it difficult, if not impossible, for Hezbollah to move rocket launchers into the village.
"If they [the IDF'] really saw the rocket launcher, where did it go?" Mr Shalhub asked. "We showed Israel our dead. Why don't the Israelis show us the rocket launchers?"

And from a different article(Also BBC) a Hezbollah member in charge of fundraising operations in Syria makes it clear that Israel will be fighting a very long and protracted war with Hezbollah:

What about President Bush's aim to weaken Hezbollah? "He doesn't understand the people' date='" argued our contact. "We will never be weakened.
"For Hezbollah, fighting is not about weapons or guns, it is with the heart and soul." [/quote']

Dunenewt · August 3, 2006

Um, Newt, I don't think you did yourself a good service there.

Oops, she sent two messages at the same time at one point so there's a message missing at one point before I call her Adolf where she made a strange comment about Jews.

Shiroko · August 3, 2006

Maybe if they actually targeted Hezbollah, everything would be fine

You're welcome to come to Israel and explain Israeli intelligance how to never make a mistake. Shed us with your light based on years of experience in the a military.

Until then you should understand Hizbullah isn't walking around with a sign saying "Shoot me" on the roof.

You would also be wiser if you knew how to devide 200 to 700. (Rather old numbers)

And compare them with similiar wars.

I know you think you're brilliant but unless you want to offer a better way to fight an organization which strategy is to hide among civilians, and shoot from civilian houses and territory, which is counting on people in the wide world to complain about one side only because they have little knowledge on the subject and were shown some pictures which makes them think 25% of Beirut was destroyed and not just numerous targets which all/most were housing Hibullah activites.

These things are causing the civilian casualties. Not the other way around:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/3703F015-328D-4D9D-A287-C86BD52C7908/0/HizbullahKatyushas.wmv

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/B883D7F6-FF7B-4E46-A639-643ED03F477E/0/FiringBehindBuilding.wmv

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/0EC08413-7A4C-46D1-AA0E-773B259B318A/0/HizballaUseofcivilianShields.wmv

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/11A0342E-ECB3-4F80-A282-D9A853CA48E1/0/qana.wmv

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/B43E19CA-B17A-436D-A3F2-9E3F15A6907A/0/MissilesfromHouse.wmv

Wolf · August 4, 2006

Clemenza, all you're telling me is that Hezbollah has better propaganda than the IDF. Are we so naive, in the year 2006, as to trust anyone's news service in the war? If you're so skeptical over Western news' claims, why aren't you so skeptical about what that man said? Do you know him? Have you met him? Do you think that for whatever reason, he might have no idea what he is talking about? And consider, he's in the middle of a war engineered by foreign forces greater than his homeland, seeing his home torn apart, he's pissed off and he's going to lash out against whatever he feels like -- regardless of its truth or not. I've seen plenty of photos of Hezbollah Katyushas, I've seen photos of the rocket fuselages, and I've seen bombs with Hebrew script and blown up neighborhoods -- of both sides. You think its terrible that this stuff is happening to people? Then stop supporting either side, because the worst thing the media is doing right now is prolonging the conflict by, 1) making it global in scope by offending international parties, 2) giving the best coverage to whichever side they like more, effectively changing nothing, and 3) giving people who want political gain an avenue by which the conflict can be manipulated to effect. Don't any of you see that? I swear, for people who reference the Nazis so often, you clearly didn't learn your lesson form WW2.

PS, none of that was directed at Clemenza as a human being, nor his arguments. His statement served as a springboard for my greater rant, and should he take personal offense, I do apologize as that was not my intent. Rather, I criticze us as a collective, a generation of deplorable intellectual ineptitude.

chatfsh · August 4, 2006

I just had an interesting discussion over dinner with a Jewish friend of mine. She said that the investigation into the Qana incident yielded evidence that the people killed by the Israeli bombing may have already been killed by a misfired rocket from Hezbollah. Not that it was intentional, but Hezbollah used it to their benefit.

Has anyone else heard anything to that effect? She couldn

Shiroko · August 4, 2006

There's some stuff about it but its more of a wishful thinking than being true.

However only 28 people seem to have died there now. And some things are unexplained about that bombing (The time gap and such).

You can however defintely see how a rescue worker posed with a dead baby around 10 times each time for a different news agency. Seemingly with gaps of up to 3 hours between the pictures.

But nothing really official supports it, and frankly even if it's false the damage has already been done.

Wolf · August 4, 2006

Israel is going to face the same problem the US faces; no one likes it when "nations" go to war; it frightens them, and they expect that governments, especially Western ones, are too stable and peaceful for such an awful, awful thing. However, quite counter-intuitively, these same people do not mind it when a militant, underground organization goes to war -- like Hezbollah, Hamas or now, apparently, the revived-Taliban. It is as if they expect these groups to be killing people, and therefore nothing is out of the ordinary for them, and their world view can remain intact. The US's greatest crime in Iraq, and apparently Israel's greatest crime in Lebanon, is not the actual violence being committed, but that they disturbed the worldview of the Western liberal world.

ordos45 · August 5, 2006

But good God, it isn't like Hezbollah is dashing endorsed by the Lebanese government! The political wing is, but the military wing of Hezbollah is NOT sanctioned by the government. The IDF IS, it is the national army of Israel. Fine, fire on Lebanese hospitals, Israel will then be no better than Syria or Iran. By the way, if you use the 'equivalent retaliation' argument, then the Palestinians are right in trying to destroy Israel and take back the Holy Land. The Jews had the Holy Land first, did they? Well, what about the Caananites they forced out? What about Jericho? After all, those people were the ancestors of modern-day Muslims. Equivalent retaliation, right? The Jews take the Holy Land from Caananites. Jews lose land, Caananites reoccupy. Jews get land back in 1947, Caananites(Now Muslims) are forced out. It only makes sense, then, that now the Muslim people should reoccupy the Holy Land and force the Jewish people out, then, eh?

Since I promised Clemenza a reply back on page five, here it is. Bear in mind I'm on some very nice pain meds.

No it's not, and yes there is a difference between Hezbollah as a political party and as a terrorist organization. Just not much of one. Lebanese hospitals treat Hezbollah fighters, therefore they are valid targets. You don't fight terrorists, or 'freedom fighters' by playing nice all the time.

When did I say the Jews had it first? Please tell me, I would love to know that. You seem to be fitting me with the stereotype that I believe Israel should only exist because I've read the Old Testament. I suggest if you find the need to take the Israelis land from them based on the give and take biblical argument you argue that with the United Nations who created the state of Israel partially out of guilt for the holocaust and partially due to documents like the Balfour letter.

---

I congratulate Israel on thus far refraining from bringing its full might to bare due to concern for civilian casualties. I congratulate the Lebanese army for deciding they don't want to die pointless deaths by fully engaging the IDF. I congratulate those on both sides who go out amidst shelling, airstrikes, and rocket attacks to go help the injured, you're all better human beings than I.

Edric O · August 6, 2006

Israel is going to face the same problem the US faces; no one likes it when "nations" go to war; it frightens them, and they expect that governments, especially Western ones, are too stable and peaceful for such an awful, awful thing. However, quite counter-intuitively, these same people do not mind it when a militant, underground organization goes to war -- like Hezbollah, Hamas or now, apparently, the revived-Taliban. It is as if they expect these groups to be killing people, and therefore nothing is out of the ordinary for them, and their world view can remain intact. The US's greatest crime in Iraq, and apparently Israel's greatest crime in Lebanon, is not the actual violence being committed, but that they disturbed the worldview of the Western liberal world.

That's not the reason. I think it is only natural for people to side with rebel forces who fight in their own homeland for what they call "freedom".

I mean, think about it: Suppose there was a conflict in a country you never heard about, and the only things you knew about this conflict were that the army of a foreign power with overwhelming military strength was fighting against disorganized bands of local rebels who wanted to throw the foreign army out of their country. Which side would you be inclined to support?

VigilVirus · August 6, 2006

Rooting for the underdog ;)

Wolf · August 6, 2006

I disagree, I think its honestly because Israel, the United States and essentially all other Western countries are held to a higher standard than unconventional militant organizations. Quite honestly, did anyone here think Israel would invade Lebanon over the kidnappings of a few soldiers and the lobbing of a few rockets into an Israeli town? I quite doubt it. Even worse, that could be considered an invasion of Israel's territory that we all viewed as somewhat expected of Hezbollah. Furthermore, Lebanon is not Hezbollah's "home." I cannot stress this enough, that Hezbollah is not on the defensive, that the organization itself is using Lebanese ground simply as a battlefield to further its own agenda. That the Palestinian-born Hamas also is involved in this conflict and that Iran continues to fund and arm Hezbollah to battle Israel proves ever more that this conflict is less about the defense of Lebanon against Israel, but the continuation of Lebanon's sad history; the battlefield of foreign agents more powerful than herself. That I recall terror groups blowing up markets and buses throughout Israel on a continuous basis over the last year for sure, killing hundreds, and that the groups most responsible for these acts were Hamas and Hezbollah do not color this conflict as "the underdog Hezbollah fighting the good fight to free the Lebanese people." It's quite obvious to me that they don't give two damns about the Lebanese people, just like how the rest of the Middle East never gave two damns about Palestine. If they did, wouldn't they have let refugee camps be set up in their lands to protect them? Or at the very least, allow Palestinians migrate out of their ravaged lands?

And, just as a side note, I've heard of Lebanon before, Edric. ;) I think most people here have, and I think that knowledge of conflicts involving Israel is fairly common throughout the world. To most people who have access to any form of international media and do not live under a rock, this stuff should seem familiar. Your stacking of the question, "suppose there was a country you had never heard about" fixes the deck quite unfairly in your favor. When the family of one of my good friends (she tends to call me "big brother") lives in Haifa, my perspective on the conflict is slightly more informed than the average Joe's in Edric's vision. But, I hate to inform you all of this little fact about me, as I do not wish you to discount my arguments purely on emotional terms -- I have seen every comment with an Israeli flag on this forum go ignored for just that reason -- and as you can tell, I have the utmost sympathy for Lebanon's twisted fate being the result of foreign powers wrestling within her. I place the blame of this entire situation on the organizations of Hezbollah and Hamas for refusing consistently to utilize diplomacy honestly, and for pursuing kidnaping, the mass murder of civilians and the targeting of political officials for assassination as tools to further their political agendas. That Hezbollah is called, "The Party of God" is nothing short of the most obvious corruption. What if I created "The Society of Christ" and began gunning down Muslims? Would they be your underdogs, too?

EDIT: What you're basically saying is that anyone who knows nothing about the conflict ought to side with Hezbollah. Well... why do we 1) care what people who know nothing about the conflict think, and 2) why should we emulate them?

Purge · August 6, 2006

The notion of Hezbollah being disorganized is ridiculous. Disorganized small time fighters don't have anti-tank missiles and tank-neutralizers. Iran admitted this week that it had indeed been providing weapons to them.

So I don't see how anyone can look at this situation and not understand that Iran used a group that has the rep of being "small time" to execute an operation that proves quote the opposite.

It's a terrorist organization with backing from the leader of one of the most prominent nations in the Middle East, who also happens to be a Holocaust denyer, and proponent for wiping Jews and Israel off the map.

It's so utterly transparent and has been the whole time.

Tell me this, if Jordan - which is 2/3 Palestinian - agreed to better impliment the Palestinians into the country (Jordan takes up 77% of the land known as Palestine), and Israel even agreed to cede some of the West Bank to them (again, Jordan - which is 2/3 Palestinian - already has 77% of Palestine, but nonetheless) do you think radical Islam would suddenly cease wanting to wipe Israel off the map?

I don't think so. Because it's never been about Palestine or Palestinians.

First of all, before 1948 Palestinian almost exclusively referred to Jews. The Palestine Philharmonic, Palestinian Post, etc. and tons of other businessnes in Palestine were all Jewish.

Arab leaders in 1947 and 48 even went so far as to call the terms Palestine and Palestinian creations of Zionists. It wasn't until Jews became Israelis and their piece of Palestine became Israel that the connotation of Jews as Palestinians (habitants of Palestine) ceased.

There were no Palestinians, they considered themselves Syrians and considered Palestine "lower Syria". They didn't care about their own seperate nation, because they considered themselves a part of one already. There is no Palestinian ethnicity, language, or nation, or former nation. To become a Palestinian refugee during the War of Independence there were so little Arabs with any kind of lengthy lineage there that they lowered it to only needing TWO YEARS to be eligable.

I also often hear people try to connect Palestinians with Canaanites. The truth is, Canaanites - with through assimilation, destruction, or just flat out leaving - disappeared over 3,000 years ago. There is no validity to the claim that Palestinians owned the land as Phillistines (who were from Greek islands) nor Canaanites (who disappeared over 3,000 years ago).

But getting back to today. Palestinians make up 2/3 of the population of Jordan, another recently created country given to the very small Hashemites tribe for their helping of British in WWI. Palestinians make up 2.4 million of the 2.8 million population of the West Bank, and represent 97+ percent of the population in the Gaza Strip.

There may be no state named Palestine (as there never has been), but they are citizens of much more area and land than Israelis are.

In 1947 the UN passed the partition plan. The plan said that when the British withdrew it was up to the respective people to declare their independence. Israel was within it's rights to declare itself a state as the partition plan was passed 33-13, more than double.

The next month the Arab League met in Cairo and agreed to take it into their own hands, and use military force. They believed that just because they voted against the plan, it didn't matter that it passed. So they refused to accept it, and instead invaded, six nations along with the Palestinians.

Let me ask you this, who took Gaza and the West Bank - two areas specifically set aside for Palestinians - and destroyed them? It wasn't Israel, it was Egypt and Transjordan. For almost 20 years they occupied those lands and NOT ONCE tried to establish ANYTHING for the Palestinian people.

But again, coming back to today. There is no reason the Palestinians shouldn't be integrated into Jordan better, and maybe given some of the West Bank. Palestinians constitute the majority in Jordan, and they are Jordanian citizens. To act like it is a MUST that the land must be taken from the Jews to be provided to them is perposterous when Jordan has almost four times as much land as Israel, and about 1.5 million LESS people.

nemafakei · August 6, 2006

Purge, I'm now having a hard time figuring out who you're arguing against.

christrox316 · August 6, 2006

When you really boil everything down it comes to one singular point.

The Arabs are trying to screw Israel over.

Thats all that there is to it.

They are trying to do with Palestine what they couldnt do with the Six Day war.

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