London...

[Dante]

Not everyone trusts the police. And shooting someone should only ever be in self-defence. Why not use tasers?

[exatreide]

Oh I don't know Dante.. You ever Shoot electrical devices at someone you think is carrying an explosive?

[GUNWOUNDS]

well i dont like the shoot-in-the-head policy...... i understand that you dont want to shoot in the chest where the explosives are... but i see nothing wrong with shooting them in the legs.

They obviously wont have explosives on their legs and if you are such a good shot that you can shoot someone 5 times in the back of the head then you can definately hit their legs. IMO.

[nemafakei]

"1: Jean Charles de Menezes leaves a house under surveillance and arrives at Stockwell station

2: Witnesses say he vaults the automatic ticket barriers and heads for the platforms

3: He then ran down an escalator after being approached by up to 20 plain-clothed police officers and tried to board a train

4: He apparently refuses to obey police instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead"

Idiot.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Ok after reading that maybe he did deserve a few caps in the head.  Thats what you call forced natural selection.

[Wolf]

I think its funny that Kiyouta made the point that "this is the UK -- not America" in trying to make the comment that somehow the corrupt American government has brainwaished its population into obedience, and that the UK campaign against terrorism wasn't as bloody and therefore less shameful. Yet, I havn't heard of an American national being blown away by plain-clothed US Marshals.

[lowzeewee]

Since they are plain-clothes police, they could easily pass for goons out to get any person whose skin is not white, especially when they were together in a large group of 20? Being Brazilian, it puts the man in that same category and redneck cops will go past their boundary to inflict pain/revenge anytime.

Why was it necessary to have two officers pounce on him to subdue him and a third to pump 5 bullets into him? Why not just 1 bullet? Afraid he won't die from just 1 bullet?

[erjin999]

I guess the buillets were to make shure he didnt try to pull any triggers or detonate any bombs. Maybe they believe using electrical devices to disable the man might risk triggering the device, if any.

AS for why he ran, maybe he thougt they were a bunch of racists people who wanted to kick several shades of crap out of him. If they werent plain clothes, and he still ran, then fine, but did he understand that when they tried to identify themselves ?

[GUNWOUNDS]

well i am sure the police had several badges.

[Dante]

It's hard to show a badge to someone while they're running away from you. And gun crime in London is reaching epic proportions, if you see someone with a gun they're actually less likely to be a policeman than a thug. Especially in plain clothes.

I think its funny that Kiyouta made the point that "this is the UK -- not America" in trying to make the comment that somehow the corrupt American government has brainwaished its population into obedience, and that the UK campaign against terrorism wasn't as bloody and therefore less shameful. Yet, I havn't heard of an American national being blown away by plain-clothed US Marshals.

Well of course not. You have Guantanamo Bay.

Oh I don't know Dante.. You ever Shoot electrical devices at someone you think is carrying an explosive?

And a bullet is better how?

[Wolf]

Still, Dante, I think we both can agree that there is no "exceptional" national spirit; British or otherwise. So statements like, "Well, this is the UK, that won't happen here!" carry about as much weight as "A prison camp, in America? Never!" (well, it's in Cuba, but you know what I mean). Besides, Britain is the country with video surveillance all over the place, although America wants to institute the same policy...

[Dante]

True, true... what is it we have, highest camera-to-person ratio in the world? Second highest? I forget, but it's a bad statistic either way.

[Mahdi]

Looks like the guy was just some dude from Brazil who had nothing to do with the attacks.

[erjin999]

He might have been an overstayer, outstaying his visa. They say thats why he might have run. His family are, understandably, pretty devesatated.

[Megashrap]

"1: Jean Charles de Menezes leaves a house under surveillance and arrives at Stockwell station

2: Witnesses say he vaults the automatic ticket barriers and heads for the platforms

3: He then ran down an escalator after being approached by up to 20 plain-clothed police officers and tried to board a train

4: He apparently refuses to obey police instructions and after running onto a northbound Northern line train, he is shot dead"

Idiot.

Wow, doing all that given the current heightened state of alert they were in. Thats like taking your private plane for a ride when the US halted all air traffic. Either way it was guaranteed suicide, plain and simple, and look at it this way, at least one things for sure they are taking it seriously. I say very good call.(justified 100%)

[alchemi2]

My view entirely scarman. If the cops hadn't shot him and he had exploded a bomb killing 20-50 people then the enquires would have been into police incompetence. The headlines in press would read police ALLOW innocents to be killed. As a member of the public my support lies with cops, they  did the right thing.

Five shots may sound extreme but under the impression that the guy is a suicide bomber and based on the difficulty of a head shot even at short range the with a rapid fire pistol 5 shots is quite controlled.

Yes sympathy for his family but at end of day he had the chance to comply and officers were shouting and displaying they were police so in the present climate why not stop it makes no sense to me.

[erjin999]

2 busses have been either targetted or blow up. Once in each of the major bombings/attempted bombings.

Many people died on the busses. Why was he allowed on the bus, if he was watched all the way to the underground ? What if he WAS one of bombers, and killed 10s of people on the busses ? Why was he not stopped before boarding the bus ?

Why was he allowed to pass up to 20 officers, presumably there would be several of them following him but also many of them already in the station before him (ie, between him and the platform where he died). How did they let him get passed them ? What if he detonated the bomb he wasnt carrying before they brought him down (on the train) ?

Was all of this not incompetance if what they say is to be believed ? How on earth can he be allowed to pass up to 20 officers ?!  Why was he not shot as soon as he ran ?

[Edric O]

Well, everything depends on whether the policemen properly identified themselves. If you saw 20 angry-looking guys in plain clothes coming at you with guns, would you stick around to find out who they are and what they want?

[erjin999]

If he was going to target a bus, he would have been successful. They would not have found him.

[Mahdi]

Little flaw in those theories:

1)  If they'd been following the guy ever since he left the house and suspected he was a terrorist, here's an idea, how about stopping and searching him before he reaches his suspected target?

2)  The guy is Brazillian.  Which means he may not understand English, which means he may have just seen seven guys with guns yelling at him in a language he isn't fluent in.  In which case I'd probably run too.  Or since he's Brazilian he's used to Cops who, you know, solved the homeless problem of that country by killing all the homeless.  In which case 7 of them pointing guns at you and yelling might just, again, cause you to run.

3)  I've said it before, but I'm saying it again:  The police think he has explosives strapped to his torso because of a heavey winter jacket that looks padded.  So what do they do?  They shoot him in the back!

Anyone else ever see Broken Arrow?  "Do not shoot at the thermonuclear warheads!"

[Dunenewt]

They shot him in the head.  Jumping into the tube with the police chasing you is asking for it anyway considering recent events.

[Jack Leaf]

Did you actually read Mahdi's post?

[erjin999]

Did you read MY post as well ? He never should have been allowed on the us, let alone the underground !

[nemafakei]

"Yet, I havn't heard of an American national being blown away by plain-clothed US Marshals"

Um, I may be wrong, but given that your police all carry guns and regularly use them, I assumed that mistakes are made frequently enough over the entire country for them not to report them nationally most of the time.

[Megashrap]

Did you read MY post as well ? He never should have been allowed on the us, let alone the underground !

Good point Erj. Attention shouldn't be directed at why or how wrong the police were that shot the man, or was it a justified shooting, Attention should be aimed at why didn't they do it sooner, if any fuss at all.

Well, everything depends on whether the policemen properly identified themselves. If you saw 20 angry-looking guys in plain clothes coming at you with guns, would you stick around to find out who they are and what they want?

I see what your saying, but trying to pursue a suspected terrorist wearing say, black jackets with giant white letters for all the world to see doesen't sound to great of an idea either or flashing badges at every Tom and Jane they run upon while trying to pursue or apprehend a terrorist suspect capable of killing who knows how many people. It's just my opinion, but seems in these times were the potential for disaster is so damn high, I think a few civil liberties can be overlooked in hightened states of potential terror attacks.