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The more I think of it the more I 'm convinced that Ordos cannot turle on a dune map. I challenge you to find a way to break ordos defenses on a non-spice map though!

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lol if you check the thread in emperor about rock paper scissors and look at the screenshot i posted that proves that hark has double the firepower i can assure you it would be quite easy to break a ordos formation.

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All I was suggesting is to take 3 minutes and show it 1st hand ;)  I know hark or atr can stop ordos turtling; (or any house can stop any other house from turtling) but if someone is convinced that they can come up with the unstoppable/unbreakable turtling defense, I say "hoo-yah" lets get a game and show me that defense. 

Afterall - a test should be fairly easy to prove or disprove in a game.

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I think mass orni prevent from ordos turtling too in late game. when atr get thier turtling with grounded units n make plain, ordos cant keep thier units with base at same time against pumping out from 3 hangers orni rush(like a mass gunship)

Dont let atr n hark get mass grounded units. If atr or hark got not much grounded units by ordos hit n run early, then ordos turtling aginst them .

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  • 4 weeks later...

i think its completely possible to mount a good defense vs atr with ordos  even without the use of higher ground cover..that is if u consider containment and restricting theyre massing ..a defense..an aggressive defence 

also harrass tactics are a good defense imo..

the only thing that unbalances the game imo is subs...coz not everyone is gonna use frem/sard..even tho most say u should,its a choice that can upset the games balance.. if u dont have elite or fred..then wot u gonna do vs aa and devi..apart from use tactics?  now im not saing devis and aa are unbeatabl..snipers any1? heck evn flame

based on the choice lets say ur didnt use sard or frem  so no elite vs devi no fred vs las no fwarrior vs mort etc

what im saying is based on ur standard units,it is completely possibl to stop atr mino wall

theyre formation has to be broken, imo to use las or better yet devi, coz as gun pointed out  20 minos paked together is almost unstopable

but all in all imo without theyre support sniper for mort kind for dust/las the only way its doable,imo is if u break the mino formation and pik them off...but the only reaal problem then is spacing..room to fall bak etc for time and unit replacement/scouting

anyone could try eits and devis on hordes  forcing them to use drones...use amine/advca to lure drone and aatroop takes drone out wen its that much closer without moving into mino btw, then eits will do a bit of dmg to a few minos even kill 2-3 if ur good

as i sed before i strongly think that subs are a bit unbalancing coz not everyone uses the same sub..

and wen they do it can put ordos at a disadvantage price wise..350 vs 950/700  the same with fred..werms are bs vs mino.. or agen elite vs guns..coz of rof and dmg vs aatroop or mine

but as i sed just then  the elite kill a 950 unit in 1 hit  - 350 as well..that i believe was reserved for ords v ords matches ..just my opinion..

with hark mayb u could use mtanks..1200 each?  vs 1300?  u can fire and move forward to avoid fire..but not with out breaking the mino up the back first or even use ctanks for dmg magnets wile u pik away ill forget about inks

coz i dunno how long itl take to kill all those  minos+reinforcements without support or running back all the time..till ur space runs out..anyway sidetraked with hark.. :/

another idea is to wait until the minos are a good screen away from theyre base and just take the back door kill the base wil they retreat to save it..eits the war  and ref even to slow them down...hehe  eits lol no1 uses them  or devis really..dunno y ..devis.literealy own

all in all yea i beleive that the snake has to slow or kill the bird before it takes full flight coz even hark has restricted air space vs atr..its a NO FLY ZONE!

but my final word here to this is...how are u going to destroy them if u sit there and wait.

heresy grows from idleness!

anyway thats my 2c werth..

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what do u try if u send eits to a horde? even if they could hurt a mino, has atreides mongos drones and elites...coz no1 will send a minohorde alone without support...or it is a n00b, but than i would never let him grow up so big.

with lazerz u can kill small groups of minos, but u cant kill bigger groups coz of the splintering bullet....and if 10 minos are fireing at the same time, u cant hit em with hit n run tactics, or u will need 1 month to kill em...hehe

believe me, u can hold an attack coz u have faster units than atr (he has to send units from far away to ur base) but in a fair 1vs1 head on attack u will loose with ordos

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ok all the eits will do to any horde of minos is soften it up, also very good vs deployed kindjal squads/mortar.

its probably better to use them as bait(shiny and expensive) or vs refs or fac if u are in a position to,slowing them a bit,even theyre wind traps if they like the old nuke bait formation(close together)thatl slow everything down,and kill/disable the gun/misile turrets if im playing the right game ?

but atr Will use drones.. :] if not then theyre in trouble !

so ord could use a carryall to lure the drones(no1 likes theyre minos being piked up) so atr might attack the adv ca(target/chase)if use 2 aatoppers per drone in a good formation(maybe use theyre flight path while they circle if idle) the carry all wont last long vs more than 1 drone..

and the speed disadvantage ordos get when they are hit will probably be used against them as well..as slow moving unit will seem easy to take care of with a much faster unit yes? so give or take 4 squares range of the aatroop's(2-3 per drone)

either it will limit your chasing range or you wont chase at all,get too close u will loose a drone,but an undamaged drone attack suspecting carryall that doesnt have to run far(less than 10 squares)is pretty safe ..

ordos are self healing after all.

but anyway..i've got a question for all you hark and atr users...why dont any of you use missiletanks or sonic tanks?? i know theyre not 'fighting kikass fast massing owns all' units..but neither are laser tanks or deviators?

and as for the amine being useless...have you ever masses  40 or so aamines without rallying ur hangar?..try it -watch how they spam all over ur base automatically..then get a gunship freak to attak u with 30 gs see how far he gets.

but i must admit  ages ago even i thought  they were an insult to the game. till i tryd using them

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u twit

if i see my opponent with AA mines, i DONT build gunships and stomp on him with hark ground..besides, u need a funk lot of AA mines to stop a horde of gunships. The hark player could just dev drop you

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but anyway..i've got a question for all you hark and atr users...why dont any of you use missiletanks or sonic tanks?? i know theyre not 'fighting kikass fast massing owns all' units..but neither are laser tanks or deviators?

and as for the amine being useless...have you ever masses

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deviators a big amount of kobras and the rest of the units mortars anything u like can face very well against a big atreides horde...

because minos are kinda dumb u got any unit to distract minos easily and kobras can move closer to minos so when they deploy thats the end for minos, this + deviators and other units can take em easily... and its true any units from ordos when got hit by enemy slow down ... but the thing is kobra got decent armor so when u deploy u cant order them to shoot one by one on minos to destroy em .. and thats faster than minos shooting by themselves... and if u order minos to shoot at one unit they will start moving like freaking dumbos everywhere so i prefer 10000 times kobras as defense, and range problem isnt anything cuz u can use ctrl and shoot near to mino and kobra will still pwn the mino.. kobras firepower is stronger..

its true that atr air to air is very good but they has very light armor so apcs troopers and elites can take em easily no matter if u got 100000 cuz they got low armor....

maybe ordos isnt good yet in defending stance because almost no ordos players plays in def stance .. they just rush etc ... someone will got to improve their "turtle" mode... every house is well balance we just got to figure out how to play well with them

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I havent played much ordos than other two houses. just i think

mass kobra vs mass mino on flat ground, mino owned

mass kobra on the rock vs mass mino on flat desert, kobra win

as kindjal said, kobra not purpose to kill mino, while they just get shoot by mino, laser deviator sard elites, ad carryall catch minotaur.

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well in any case ,this is my opinion here so burn me alive if im wrong,

but if by turtle u mean sitting at ur base and taking them out from there?

imho i dont think thats possible at all with ordos unless they (hark/atr)get slack on air defence(or get distracted)

harkonnen would do that the most effieciently id think with those gunships

i dont think that turtling has to mean sitting there though..because even a turtl has to either run out of room and or move out of his base someday,to make more units that is

and range isnt everything, a sonic/dev/devi drop could break a few minos/inks/kobras pretty quick too..provided theyre distracted by another target or u use the mino's minimum range(?)

turtling with ordos is possible but will be the easyest to overrun if it doesnt move..it could be used if u need time for tech or certain bo or choke point,etc theres a dozen other reasons as well probably..

in any case a 100% sit and wait ordos wont win the day besause they loose air superiority..

and when ordos run out of room they cant run,or mass without moving forward and 'turtling' somwehere else

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This thread does not suggest the ordos could turtle and win. It suggests that ordos could turtle and never lose. In addition, it concerns only ordos vs atreides.

There is no need for a turtler to expand. He should never lose air superiority above his base. Mass AA troopers and sardaukar elites can deal with any aerial threat. Sure, a very large force of ornis could get shots in and destroy a building or two, but, as I 've said earlier, it will suffer so heavy losses it will not be worth it.

Especially on a non-spice map, there is very little that could cause the ordos player to lose to atr in late game. He may only be overrun during middle game, when either ground or anti-air force is  weaker than his opponent's.

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Um erjin you should learn how to read :P I said especially on non spice maps. Where players receive cash ya know.

It can even happen in spice maps if kobras in base can overlook spicefield (which should have a spice bloom). I think this happens in Sandy pass and some other maps.

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You do realise that those kinds of games hardly ever happen ? Online I mean...

So if I get this right, you are discussing the remote possibility of something so unlikely, I may as well not post regarding it anymore ? :P

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where i can find a reason to turtle with ordos? (if i am not jeff and want to make a game crapy...hehe) hark and atreides can turtle, cause they can send air units, can do some drone work, dev drops, conyard drops with turretplacing in a base and so on....but ordos??? shall i send some aa-mines to destroy some carryells? even eyes r not strong enough, coz its to easy to defend.

well, the only reason for ordos to turtle, is coz he is in trouble, but that mostly means he is already dead, if he dont have a dedicated partner.

ordos has to go ahead. thats what ordos is made for.

@kindjal i know how to turtle with ordos.....mass aa, kobras sards and mortars at the rock and so on, but why the hell should i do this?

and finaly nunu is right, no1 is playing or talking about NON-spice maps. but even on those maps its useless to turtle around.

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even hark cant beat atr if atr has lots of money n can make any other units.

if ordos can turtle against atr late game,it means ordos killed some atr harvester or prevent atr from gathering his units. when ordos turtling near his base, it alreay dead game. ordos turtle means just they near opponent base as possible n just some delay his counter. it apply to hark against atr in late game too.

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