There's Nothing Wrong With Games, Dammit!

[Dragoon Knight]

Let me begin by telling you how this thread came to be.  I had recently finished reading the entire archive of PvP Comics, and decided that reading the rest of the site would be fun to do.  I proceed to do so, coming eventually to the 'Rants' section.  I start from the bottom up, going from least to most recent, when I hit this one; a rant about another of those stupid anti-gaming sites.  What really annoyed me is that the author agrees with them.

Keeping an open mind, I decided to read some of the articles from the anti-gaming site, MAVAV, just in case there were any valid points to be found.  Now that my rage has subsided, my mouse has been repaired and my keyboard replaced, I create this thread to put forward my own opinions.  Warning, may contain slight bias and lots of bile.

I've played games for most of my life.  I got my Sega MegaDrive and copy of Sonic 1 in 1992 and I've played hundreds of other games on tons of different platforms ever since.  Games are always going to be a large part of my life, and there isn't anything or anyone that's going to take that away from me.  But recently - as in, the last few years - people have been getting more and more uppity about games, with all sorts of claims as to how they are bad for us, warping minds, causing us to kill people, etc.  I propose to try and convince people that they are wrong, using the minimum amount of rage-inspired mockery possible.

I first direct you to the points made on the MAVAV Resources Page.  To save quoting each and every point, I'll simply dispute them one after another in the order they appear.

Firstly, I agree, video games aren't just for "fun" anymore.  People make livings out of making them, playing them as testers, overseeing their operation as GMs; there's a lot there to be had that isn't fun, but is still to do with games.  Secondly, why the hell does the fact that games companies make a lot of money mean that they are warping kids minds?  Do these people not realise that it's not the "cute, loveable, addictive, and recognizable franchise characters" that make people want to buy games?

"But what about kids?" you may ask.  "They might be brainwashed by this obvious attempt to lure kids into this terrible endeavour!"

"Wrong." I would reply, after slapping you.  "I'll explain why later."

Next comes the ridiculous claim that gamers have no social skills and lack the qualities needed for a proper life.  I would file that under elitist bullshit, with good reason.  Why does every member of society need to be excellent at being with other people?  Why do people who don't go out in the shining sun and play football every day get labeled as being recluses?  Moreover, where the hell do these people get off saying that "gamers are prone to being burdened with depression and sadness all throughout their life"?  Let me put it this way; I'm a gamer.  I play games a hell of a lot.  I am not depressed, I do not have bad social skills, I don't have to conform to what others think as being "healthy activity" and I have PLENTY of friends, most of which are gamers, who are in the same position as me.

Next comes a paragraph that fills me with more rage than a rage-filling thing.  I said I wouldn't quote anything, but this deserves to be seen again.

Fact: Health studies have found that even those casual gamers suffer from low self-esteem and self-pride compared to their athletic and more socially accepted peers in their same age group. Young gamers were found to be more likely to become lifetime gaming addicts and becoming social outcasts.

Even reading that now makes me want to vomit into an envelope and send it to these people.  The points in bold especially get me riled; they're trying to make me believe that being athletic and being socially accepted go hand in hand, and that if you don't become more like them, you'll be an outcast.

"Mummy, some kids at school beat me up because I was playing my Gameboy."

"Well, you should be more like them and play football all day, dear."

"Yes, mein Fuhrer... I mean, Mummy."

Seriously, how can they excuse trying to push their stereotypical values of social acceptance on to me?  I'm a gamer, and I'm accepted just fine.  Once again, this brings me to a point that is linked to the 'brainwashing' argument, which I shall address presently.

The next point is one of the biggest piles of bull, horse and dog excrement I have ever had the misfortune to come across; it actually helps my side of the argument by being so blatantly wrong, and allows me to address the two points I said I'd come back to.  To start with, 'hardcore' gaming does not lead to "video game addiction and abrupt lifestyle changes".  Nor does it lead to "crime and felony".  It's time that these myths were dispelled once and for all.

Anyone who has been PROVEN to be addicted to a game has something wrong with THEM.  It's not the game's fault for being so good that you want to play it all the time.  It can be thought of as similar to alcoholism; there are thousands of people out there who play these games without becoming 'addicted', so it runs logically that the minority that DO have something wrong with them, i.e. an addictive personality.  This disproves the whole "brainwashing" argument they throw at us like so much muck.

Any parent who buys their kids these games and then blames the game companies if their kids get 'addicted' like this should be shot on sight.  I really cannot stand these parents who go around blaming everything but themselves for their own crap parenting.  If you're buying your kids these games, it's YOUR FAULT.  Take them to a doctor / support group for addictions; THEY have a problem, so stop blaming the damn game companies!!

The next issue I wanted to come back to is linked to the second part of point, which I shall quote for convenience.

Hardcore gamers never buy computer video games. Instead, downloading illegally copied video games or

[DukeLeto]

I wholeheartedly agree with you.  I came across that site once and I think it may be the reason my old mouse had to be replaced.  There's absolutely no logic or fact behind any assertion made on that site.  Notice how they keep mentioning "scientific studies" that "prove a link between videogames and violence" but NEVER ONCE list a specific name of the study, a name of who did it, or a link to the source.  I could claim that a study found that being a registered Republican causes lung cancer, but it doesn't mean crap if I refuse to say which study or provide any source.

And does anyone else find it ironic that a (basically) anti-technology group has a website?  Shouldn't they be handing out flyers on a streetcorner intsead?

[Dragoon Knight]

They probably are, in whatever areas they are based.  I agree that they should start referencing these "studies" they keep mentioning; I would like to actually see one that proves a link between games and violence (or whatever) that doesn't involve the violent person having an addictive personality / other medical problem.

Unfortunately, until there is a way to objectively study several hundred test cases of gamers and monitor their behaviour WHILST having a control group to compare them to, there will never be a totally conclusive report available.  Until then, it's just the warring of opinions; it's just that the arguments posed on that site are all complete bollocks.  There IS no fact that says games = instability or lack of sociability.  They are talking out of their asses.

[Megashrap]

I think scientific studies can also prove that reading such crap from thier site can also lead to violence.(smack, poof, pow!!) I also like how they brought up Warez, anyone familiar with it knows that those sites for the most part suck so much ass due to pop-ups, virus's, crashes galore, most avoid them like the plaque. Hell it's almost impossible to get a Warez site to load. As far as the Evil Underground, BitTorrent p2p alone can get joe blow any game he wants, thats no Underground by any stretch. It's legal, and free to the public.

Quote

"Hardcore gamers never buy computer video games"

Well, any serious gamer knows that actually buying the game gets them full access of the game also as in multiplayer options, patches etc.

[Beonid]

I agree totally, Dragoon. I came across this site before and had to replace my monitor. I play Emperor and Far Cry a lot, and I don't go round killing people. Nor do I get low marks in secondary school.

Danger: Do video games make people violent?

Yes. What was once a debatable question, is now fact. New research has concluded that video game violence and behavior related violence are in fact closely related.

Where do they get their infomation from, I wonder.

[Wolf]

With respect to games and gamers being social outcasts. Actually, if you read Penny Arcade often, you're starting to see complaints in the opposite directions -- now that games have become so much more graphically appealing, games aren't just for nerds anymore, they're starting to appeal to the entire youth community. With that being said, even the athletic and "socially accepted" kids will be playing PSP in between practices. Later, they go and give some kid in computer science classes hell while he's playing his PSP in lunch. It isn't games that made nerds the nerds of their respective schools (and this applies to elementary, middle, and high school environments), and being a gamer doesn't make you a nerd anymore. The only thing that made you a nerd was the insecurity of everyone stupider than you. And that's not going to change. The only thing I would be angry about in this respect is that gaming industries now sell the gamer's heritage to everyone that used to make their lives hell.

[Dude_Doc]

Believe it or not, a game actually helped me with my life - to "think bigger".

From what I see, it seems that these people (those who think game=violence) are ranting about the teenagers/children and P2P programs, instead of blaming the game companies. I see it like blaming a mentally ill person for being mentally ill, not for biological causes or how he/she grew up etc.

But I agree - games are like movies and comics, and all other media. If they are so mad towards games, then why not on news-agencies, they spit out violence every second of the day.

I think that it is they who need help, not the gamers.

[Edric O]

I completely agree with Dragoon Knight, and I'd also like to point out that this "MAVAV" (wouldn't it be more appropriate for them to pick a name like, say, Better Understanding our Little Loved-ones and Sending to Hell Information Technology?) is wrong about gamers keeping their "addiction" for games - and presumably "suffering" because of it - throughout their entire lives. Until a few years ago, I used to be an avid gamer, up to date with all the latest developments in the games industry. Now, I barely play one new game every 6 months. I'm pretty much an ex-gamer.

Oh, and don't worry too much about these anti-gaming groups. Once the majority of new parents is made up of people who used to be gamers themselves in their childhood, there won't be any ground for MAVAV to stand on any more.

[Megashrap]

[GUNWOUNDS]

The united states military has extremely expensive flight simulators that teach Apache pilots how to pilot the attack helicopter.

[GUNWOUNDS]

[Megashrap]

True, I had my daughter try and read over my shoulder a few times on Emp. But going into a Gaming community like that you have got to expect profanity anyway without a doubt.

[Egeides]

My 2 cents:

One can learn lots about beauty and art by playing Final Fantasy

One can learn about mythology by playing Zelda (about himself and exploration drive, etc.)

One can learn passion about history, management, whattever with Civilization, SimCity, Capitalism...

One can get closer to computers, thus programmation, Wikis, future.

One can learn to jump higher and get thumb tendinites with Mario Bros ;)

etc etc

And of course, there are some bad secundary effects with all this. But without games (thus Internet), people use the alternatives. So, what do you learn from the idiot box?...

[exatreide]

gun wounds, just mute them? its under player options.

[ps501]

[Khan]

Games can easily cause violence, every time I hear some one talk about the sims I want to absolutely murder them.

[VigilVirus]

I can see how you could say that games may teach kids certain things their parents wouldn't want them to know. Examining the point made by Gunwounds, I can truly relate to the things said about Counterstrike, since I myself am a fan of the new Source version. At times, it feels like the game itself is pursuading you to curse or use an ethnic slur, because of individuals that act in ways at times that are unable to be described with common terms. But you see the dilemma, do you not? Is it the game that creates these factors or the people who play the game with you? If it's the people, how is it any different from when kids hang out together and share knowledge and insults?

As for single player games, like I'm sure I've said before - weak minds.

[EWS]

DK: Mind that time we had the massive FF marathon?

Anyway, would just like to requote this and have my say on it;

Yes. When video games were linked to the Columbine high school shooters, a frenzy of new research was launched, in which, one team of researchers discovered that first person shooter games do indeed teach gamers with the basic knowledge of how to kill. This research arrived be so conclusive that the U.S. government Army developed a free video game to be used as a virtual boot camp and killing simulator.

Since when were the Columbine high school shooters linked to video gaming?

[Dante]

Actually, you're all wrong. Games really do cause violent behaviour. Why just the other day I left my computer after playing Neverwinter Nights for a while, and decided to sacrifice a toddler to appease Lolth the Goddess of Chaos. Then I painted myself black and dyed my hair white, before setting light to all the nearby villages and going to live in a cave, which inexplicably has internet access. Also, Black and White has convinced me that I am God, and should therefore be worshipped. I demand that you send me the hearts of your firstborn, lest ye be smote.

(On a side note, though the starting post is all good, I do think that since this is a site for gamers, there are unlikely to be any dissenting opinions. Apart from mine, of course).

[Khan]

Since when were the Columbine high school shooters linked to video gaming?

[EWS]

Ahh, not seen that.  Cheers

[Dude_Doc]

I've said this earlier, but according to Swedish scientists video games actually makes children "better" - coordination, logics, solving problems etc. That doesn't necessarily mean that playing Doom 3 or Postal 2 is something required if you want your child to have a good job, but it is something to think about.

[ps501]

In the movie elephant they make a very strong link between columbine and video games, I think it was CS in particular.

I love movies.

[Khan]

I love movies.

[Dante]

I don't remember seeing anything in Elephant except some weird black and white blocky thing that had the player on an infinate plane, shooting people. Surely that's not CS?