Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Lately, I've been thinking that Satan is...well, not that bad of a guy. For starters, he rebelled (and convinced 1/3 of the angels, so it had to be good) against the Supreme, the AlMighty, the One, and the Lord. He was fighting against the monopoly (I am the Lord, your God, you shall not have any other God besides me.), the bully, and the United States of all that is heavenly. I respect him for that. But that's not all.Adam and Eve. An interesting story. God says, nay commands to Adam, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:...But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. Of course, Eve is left out of this peptalk. She was created after he commanded Adam, and it does not say that God commanded Eve at all (just to clarify). Now comes the ssss-nake that is Satan. He asks a few questions, and urges Eve to know the knowledge of good and evil. He wanted Eve free of God's grasp, and of the robotic slavery to His command! That deserves a great deal of merit. Now God, being the bully He is, punishes the snake for Satan's righteous deed, not Satan himself. It wasn't the snake's fault that Satan had possessed it and used it for good deeds, but God didn't want that of course. Now one good thing that God did as a consequence, was to give plants defense mechanisms (Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee), but it had bad intentions indeed (this was a mild curse). Ah, I am getting offtrack. Back to that guy, Satan. In Revelations of the New Testament, Satan was a Great Dragon. In Chinese tradition, a Dragon was the symbol of happiness, immortality, procreation, fertility and activity. With these descriptions in mind, Satan was indeed very great. This is not so with Christian tradition, but Christian tradition portrays Satan as bad, evil, and horrible, so I choose a different perspective on the Dragon. My conclusion is basically: I would worship Satan anyday over God. If I believed in either of them, of course. Satan is portrayed unfairly, and is really put into stories with only one side to them, and all of them from God's side (or Michael's side, if you include the battle against the Great Dragon). I say, give Satan a chance. He doesn't seem that bad at all. Really. :)
zamboe Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Lately, I've been thinking that Satan is...well, not that bad of a guy. I would worship Satan anyday over God. If I believed in either of them, of course. Satan is portrayed unfairly, and is really put into stories with only one side to them, and all of them from God's side (or Michael's side, if you include the battle against the Great Dragon). I say, give Satan a chance. He doesn't seem that bad at all. Really. :)That thinking is really decadent. In other words you would chose death over life anyday and hate over love anyday.God help you.
SurlyPIG Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 What I've always wondered is why Satan is around at all. If he's an immortal is, is his power equal to or even comparable to God's? If not, why doesn't God snap his fingers and be rid of him? If you are a being that represents all good, is it not logical to do your best to rid the universe of that which represents all evil? Also, if God is the first, the only, the creator of all, why did he create Satan?
DjCiD Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Satan was once an Angel, so the question should be why did God create Angels
Egeides Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 ACE:God is good, thus he let's people choose. He's not like those who would wish to force conversions in Middle- East or vanquished Japan (ahem)Acriku:God doesn't take the choice from you. He is just like a parent which was showing what he knew as right (he KNEW, if we consider him perfect which is a requirement to be God). There is only ONE truth, should it be theist or not. Thus God, in a theist model, is the one who wishes to lurn others good (=true) things.
Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Author Posted May 14, 2003 Satan is not death, and God is not life. Christian tradition has put an "evil" label on Satan, when he is the one who broke us free from God's slavery. And my thinking does not follow that I choose death over life, and hate over love. ACE, the only difference that I find between God and Satan is that God has demonstrated one of his greater powers, while Satan has not. Demonstration. If Michael did manage to beat the Immortal Great Dragon, which the details seem to be lacking (considering the magnitude of such a battle, and significance of it), he didn't kill him. Because Satan is immortal, even God cannot kill it. Atleast, if he could you would think Satan would have been killed a long time ago. Especially since the significance of an angel going against the Might of God is incredibly enormous, that God would have just annihilated the leader of the rebellion (IMO).Some people say that the angels are the source of his power, and God is just the "mind" behind the fingers. And when 1/3 of his power was defeated, he lost /3 of his abilities (which the same people think is the reason why God has not done anything spectacular since Genesis). Interesting.Dj, in Genesis, I have not come across a verse telling of the creation of the Angels. This leads me to assume they were 'always there' just like God. I've been thinking about this, and remembered how the 1/3 of angels that joined the Great Dragon were said to be stars, so perhaps when God created stars, those were the angels? It's very vague, but sort of makes sense if the two books are consistent with eachother. ACE:God is good, thus he let's people choose. He's not like those who would wish to force conversions in Middle- East or vanquished Japan (ahem)Acriku:God doesn't take the choice from you. He is just like a parent which was showing what he knew as right (he KNEW, if we consider him perfect which is a requirement to be God). There is only ONE truth, should it be theist or not. Thus God, in a theist model, is the one who wishes to lurn others good (=true) things.Interesting how you equate commanding against it, and threatening death from the doing of it, with giving a choice. You can stand up, but I'm going to blow your brains out. Hey, you got a choice don't you?Perfection is not a requirement for deity status, only supernatural abilities, such as the metamorphoses Zeus undergoes in Ovid's collection (Into bull, to rape Europa)What was right? Not having the knowledge of good and evil? If he truly wanted us not to have it, and felt that he was right, you'd think he would have stopped Satan from walking into his backyard, or atleast telling Eve not to eat from the fruit (and convince her and Adam that he was serious).
ordos45 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 *takes Acriku's temperature* You've been reading Anton LaVey or Allister Crowley again haven't you?
Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Author Posted May 14, 2003 LaVey's satanism is interesting, but no I haven't read up on him or Crowley ;)
ordos45 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 LaVey's Satanism actually portrays Satan more as a force than deity. And embraces hedonism.Crowley's is more towards Satan as a deity and summoning if I remember right.Oh the joys of www.religioustolerance.com
Vanguard3000 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 With respect to ACElethal's post, I've always liked this aspect of Slavonic Mythology:There were two gods in the beginning: Byelobog - the White God (white = good, day, etc); Chernobog - the Black God (black = evil, night, etc). Chernobog was the "bad guy", but he was nevertheless seen as an integral part of the universe. Without him, things just wouldn't work right.
Egeides Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 I have no time to answer more exhaustively to thi very interesting topic but Ordos, does "Oh the joys of www.religioustolerance.com" have any link with LeVey and Crowley??? Or I was a little lost in what you wrote, or you said this completely in parallel with the rest of your post.
Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Author Posted May 14, 2003 That website puts an often unbiased explanation of what each thing is, such as explaining what an atheist is, accurately. That may just be me, though.
Digital Guerrilla Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 :O I presented almost the same question about 3 months ago Acriku- in another thread.Re:IS there a god?
Hawat Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Great gods !Don't take that personally, Acriku, but you're twisting every aspect of the story. First: Satan revolted not because of some humanistic idea of uprising against a demagogue. He wanted to inhibit God's throne, so he was just an usurpator, not the noble rebel you're portraying him as.Second: If your parents don't want to you experience something bad, they forbid you to do it. So did God. With eating the fruit both humans went into slavery, Satans slavery...Well Acriku, i don't want to encourage to worship satan, so i don' tell you to try it out (I think i know too well what goes on in that scene, after all i know some people who were involved heavily there). Last thought: With a little bit ignorance you can turn all of the bibles lectures into their opposite. Or to cite a famous philosopher and theologist (whose name i forgot): "You can take the bible literally or you can take it seriously"
TMA_1 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 LaVey's satanism is interestingOrdo's is right, as a matter of fact, LaVey's satanism is openly athiestic. They believe in the truest form of Hedonism. He believed as well as his followers now that satan, god, angels, and all other spiritual entities are non-existant. Satan though is the personification of humankind. We are the rebellion and dont need to be spiritual at all. He taught that white light religion just puts mankind down because it doesnt allow them to enjoy the fruits of the earth. his ideal is that we should enjoy ourselvves for pleasure's sake. He is just a hedonist, and a pretty foolish one at that.Allister Crowley on the other hand... whew mama.lol He is the real deal, and I would highly suggest not even reading his stuff. You can probably agree Ordos that he was a scary guy.lolsee acriku, in your viewpoint, satan is "not that bad" because you dont believe in a spiritual existance, and whats more you especially dislike christianity. So what christianity finds as evil, you will find as good. Satan was not evil for the purposes you pointed out, he is evil for the soul reason that he is independant from God. He chose not to follow God's plan. he would laugh at all the athiests and unbelievers though, because he know's God is real, and that humankind is naturally an unintelligent and barberic race. He hates humanity because we are so inferior to him and the other angels. We are an insult to his existance because God made us, a weaker entity, in order to prove satan wrong.
Egeides Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 You propose to not even read him??Would you propose to a Crowley reader to not read the Bible "just in case" it would be convincing?I have more confiance in my faith/reason/critical sense than THAT... Truth has a natural tendancy to be showed more easily. If someone reads not only one side, then I understand the problem since he may not confront truth sometimes. I read some things from Crowley and I'm able to counter any of his argument. Deciding to not read something because you're afraid he could bring arguments that put you in doubt is doubtful to me. As much as not reading Acriku because he is an "heretic", "atheist" or anything else, which is what Catholocism did a while ago.Doing so is even more dangerous to turn someday on the Catholic overcompensation.
quoudam72 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Allister Crowley was Satan he is the guy that inspired Black Sabbath.
Navaros Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 i am actually like this thread very much. gj to the original posteryou know, i think Satan is given a bad name by idiots who don't really believe in Satan yet still claim to believe in Satan ie: Anton LaVey, Marilyn Manson and most of the "Satanic" cults in existence which claim to worship Satan although really the beliefs and practices of their cult have nothing to do with Satan at all
Miles Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 I have heard some say that the Devil's greatest accomplishment was to get man to believe that he didn't exist. Quite an accomplishment, granted. But I say, what if the Devil's greatest accomplishment was to make the world believe that he is God? What if it was Satan that spoke to Moses? What if Jesus was Satan emboddied? The Bible was then inspired by Satan, in which intolerance, persecution and enslavement to it's truth would result. Of course, people would not believe a totally evil document to follow, I don't think people would have followed a Bible that says kill 'em all (although fundamentalist muslims make me wonder) :P so the very clever and devious devil put subtle evils in his Bible, knowing that it's ambiguity would lead to misinterperetaion resulting in splits within Christianity itself, and great atrocities done as a result of honest misinterperetation. He knew that it would lead to intolerance, mistrust and hatred towards other denominations and other religions in which He created in other parts of the world. Keeping humanity from uniting and forming peaceful coexistance. He knew that by giving us his version of truth and threatening against questioning that truth, he would keep us from fulfilling our potential. Many would denounce science and any search of truth that did not fit into his nice little box. Through this he controls humanity, and inflicts his wrath on God.What if this is true? Is it any less likely than the faith that the Bible was written by a benevolent God?
TMA_1 Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 See, now you are basing this on an argument against faith. You cant do that miles. If you understood what christians believe indepth and understand that the bible in many times says that it is written "God breathed" which means it was directly inspired by him, then we wouldnt have this argument. You point out flaws that only exist because you havent really read with as much detail the bible. many of us have who are believers, so why are others suddenly the expert now? You only question the authority because you resent it, and I ask why that is? If you are arguing for no other reason than just because you dislike christianity, then thats kinda silly. I hope there is some good reason behind it.It seems that extremist writings give birth to more and more. some people on this site have shown their true colors.
Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Author Posted May 14, 2003 That's great Sand, didn't notice that (interesting how far your memory goes back :O )Hawat, the Bible only portrays one view of the story. It's healthy to not trust a story that leaves out the opposite views (like a news reporter ignoring the good things going in war, and exaggerating almost to the point of blatant lying certain parts). All throughout time Satan has been the bad guy, the scapegoat, the person to blame all evils. I choose to ignore the one-sided biased story, and focus on the good of Satan. What throne? This isn't Mt. Olympus and Zeus sitting on his ivory throne (it could be, if Christianity is consistent with stealing from other religions). If you mean the metaphorical throne, as in God's position in power, then okay. And what's so bad about that? It's noble because of the courage Satan had, going against such an Almighty and Superior God. And gaining a third of the angels with him! If a third of the angels sided with Satan, perhaps they knew Satan was righteous and noble in this deed, and agreed with him. I salute the little man going against the big bully. Second: If your parents don't want to you experience something bad, they forbid you to do it. So did God. With eating the fruit both humans went into slavery, Satans slavery...Continuing your analogy, even parents often don't know what's best for their children. Some even ignorantly kill their children, without knowing. With eating the fruit, they gained the knowledge of good and evil. What God has kept from them all along. Satan has nothing to do with the knowledge of good and evil, except that he let Eve, and thus Adam, in on it. Your claim of Satan's slavery is empty. God knows good and evil, is he a slave to Satan? Also, there is no indication that Satan has done anything further than convincing Eve to take thr fruit. Well Acriku, i don't want to encourage to worship satan, so i don' tell you to try it out (I think i know too well what goes on in that scene, after all i know some people who were involved heavily there).Well, depends on which satanism you are referring to. I do not worship Satan, I only open myself to the possibility that he was a great guy. Bible-followers are given only one side, I am looking at both and even questioning the given side.Last thought: With a little bit ignorance you can turn all of the bibles lectures into their opposite. Or to cite a famous philosopher and theologist (whose name i forgot): "You can take the bible literally or you can take it seriously"Ignorance of what? I do not see the Bible as the Truth, perhaps that is my ignorance? Questioning what professes to be the Truth absolutely is a healthy exercise, and should be practiced whenever applicable. I agree Arohk, people give Satan a bad name. It's become mutually inclusive with Satanic cults and "sacrificing" or some other rediculous blood ritual. It's become a stereotype.Miles great point you brought up. It's interesting how Lucifer(Satan) is given the name "Morning Star" and Jesus is given the same name as well. Perhaps the New Testament was Satan's work. Very thought-provoking.
Egeides Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Miles: Well I say that we judge a tree by its fruits. What are the Bible's fruits? I think that even if lot of people became completely wicked, many nonetheless went good, even if sometimes they were (NON INTEMNTIONALLY) doing bad things. It's the intention that counts... If it wouldn't have been Christian orthodoxy, well some other religion would have taken the place, as Romans were doing and so on. It's not religions themseves that are so bad, but what humans are doing with them.TMA:You can qualify people, but it wont show anyone right. The word extremist is an epiteth and as such its definition is dependent on to what it compares. Thus, they are extremist to you. But you are also extremist to them. Everyone is an extremist: communists could say capitalists were extremists, and vice versa. It's just not the same extreme.
Edric O Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Yes, Acriku, that's right... do what Satan tells you... yesss, he is such a nice guy... give him a chance... Satan is your friend... and you wouldn't turn down your friend when he needs you to do something for him, would you? Come on, do what he tells you... he promises it will be fun! Yesss... good boy, Acriku!
Acriku Posted May 14, 2003 Author Posted May 14, 2003 I am but merely assessing the actuality of Satan's decency, as one would assess the inner workings of Zeus, or Pluto.
Edric O Posted May 14, 2003 Posted May 14, 2003 Alright, then consider my point of view for a second:You hate Christianity with a passion. You claim to do so on purely scientifical and logical grounds. However, I believe that such a powerful feeling of raging hatred can only come from Satan's influence. And now you come and try to argue that Satan is in fact the really nice good guy, and that the big bad bully just wants to make him look bad.I've seen some spectacular coincidences in my life, but this one is going WAY too far.
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