Miles

The reward is in the search itself. As I search I learn new things, find new ways of looking at the universe and our existance, and broaden my mind to all the possibilities out there. I will have found purpose in that search, and hopefully can expose others to these new ways of looking at things. They don't have to agree, but if they can just open their minds and think a little about their beliefs from another angle, then I can feel that I contributed at least a little to the betterment of humanity in my own small way. The problem with you Christians is that you think that because a person is searching, then they are lost. I feel that the search represents the very nature of human curiosity that leads to exploration into a broadening of our minds. I hate to see this stifled by absolutes.

You really think that is what I base my beliefs on? I think that those things are the natural result of the divisive nature of religion, at least the intolerant part. Child molestation is simply a case of a sick fuck taking advantage of his authority. anyway--offtopic, but that is not why I don't believe in God. I refuse to jump to conclusions based on my fears and desires. Those are not valid reasons to believe in something. Would it be nice to believe in some all-powerful being who will protect me from the world's evils? Yes, that would be nice, but I have to face the fact that there is no evidence for the existance of God, least of which a book written around 2000 years ago, and I would only be diluting myself if I jumped to those conclusions based on fear and desire. It would also be nice to believe that I had an angel to give me money whenever I was short, but I'm not going to base my life on that. Enlightened.... I wouldn't go that far. Liberated.....yes. There's an old saying. "The truly wise man is one that realizes that he doesn't know anything". I have made many discoveries--personal ones. Whether or not they are original, I don't really give a shit. I am in the process of searching and learning. My statement is not that they happen. That is the obvious. But that they are the inevitable result of religion. Maybe you don't use Pascal's wager to scare others, you use it to scare yourself as demonstrated in your statement. Nor I you. absolutely 100% correct. People need to be riled from the comforts of their delusions or they will become complacent in their search. Actually I am pretty good, although not fully content. That is the fuel that drives my search. contentment leads to stagnation, which leads to no new knowledge and ignorance. I gain much satisfaction from the search. I've already said why I come here. There's very few people around me either open enough, knowledgeable enough, or interested enough to hold these kind of conversations. I use this site as a way for me to work out my beliefs, to hear other opinions, get feedback, and possibly learn new things. And no, I'm not content, as I stated above. Contentment is for fools who wish to no longer search for truth. That's your problem. Not something to prove, just something to learn. See I'm not so arrogant to claim to know the truth. I'm realistic enough to realize that I can only search and learn. It's too bad others cannot recognize their fallability.

But in order to truly advance as a species, we must be able to look forward into the long term. Religion forces people to look into the short term (there own short lives and the afterlife). "What can I do to ensure that I go to heaven?" What we should be asking is "what can I do to better the species". This causes stagnation, as humanity wallows in the comfort of it's own delusions, meanwhile not preparing, nor searching for the dangers and challenges that may face us in the long term.

What??? :- I said that logic is flawed by human interperetation. While I think there is an ultimate logic out there, we can never be sure that our perceptions are correct in providing the information to plug into logical constructs. I agreed with you that seemingly illogical things can exist in the universe. We certainly don't have a good enough grasp to claim anything as absolute. That's the whole point. But that doesn't mean that we can invent supernatural, illogical beings because we want to believe in them. Evidence is necessary, or it is just guesswork and wishful thinking.

The difference between me and you is that I only pose this scenario to play devil's advocate. To point some things out to those "weak minded" believers that their faith is based on nothing more than assumptions and wishful thinking. I'm not interested in heaven and hell, and I really don't care who thinks I will burn, nor who else is going to. These concepts are merely scare tactics conjured up by men who would control their followers, and I refuse to be frightened into a system of beliefs. Emotions are a pretty lousy tool for finding truth. They lead you to believe what makes you feel good, while the truth tends to be disturbing and awesome at the same time. Karl Marx was right on about one thing. "religion is the opiate of the masses".

Pleeeeease, not Pascal's wager. ::) In my scenerio, all the Christians will go to hell because they believe in Satan's word, whereas I search for the real truth. God will reward me and send the sheep to hell. Have fun burning for eternity. ;)

I missed nothing. I read your Quaran hypothesis and it is as valid as any other scenerio posted. This answers nothing. It is Just another theory. The fact is that whether the Bible was inspired by God, Satan, or Bob, there is no reason to hold any one theory above the other. Just because the Bible says it is inspired by God, doesn't mean that whoever wrote or "inspired" it didn't only say that to trap blind followers to serve their purposes. The religious are enslaved by those absolutes, and are incapable of looking beyond them to some more disturbing possibilities. Most don't even try. They just accept what is spoonfed to them by those "scholars", becoming slaves to their interperetations. This is an inevitability of religion, and what Satan, or Bob would be after in order to stifle human growth.

and why exactly is that?

First of all, about the illogical nature of black holes, it only proves what I tried to say to emprworm in our discussion on the ontological argument for God. The usefulness of logic is limited by human perceptions and definitions. I think the fact that black holes are "illogical", yet are all but proven to exist, only shows our limited ability to comprehend true logic.---- That was more for emprworm if he is still around Anyway, back on topic. God might exists. I don't think that anyone on this site has argued otherwise, I could be wrong, but the difference between God, black holes, the tooth fairy, and evolution is a matter of evidence. Does he exist? maybe, but jumping to the conclusion that he does just because we can conceive of him because we decide that it is possible for illogical things to exist, is foolish.

damnit, I leave for a few days and the only topic I find interesting gets locked. Well, I'm going to open this thread to finish what was being discussed before it veered off topic. If this is against the rules, then I guess it'll get locked, but damnit it was not my fault it got off topic. >:( Anyway, Gunwounds, I really expected a better response from you. You seem to be the "scholar", but your response of "well it would leave a house divided" dissapointed me. There are two ways to counter this.....rebuttal? 1. First of all, Satan doesn't give a shit if we like of worship him. He hates humanity, so in order to get us to destroy ourselves, he is willing to take the role of "evil" one in order to avenge himself on God. The "good" parts of the Bible, that you said Satan would never put in the Bible are merely camoflouge for the true intentions of the Bible-- to cofuse us, to set us against each other, and to blind us from truth. Of course he has to make it look "good" or we would never have believed in it. Perhaps your "house divided" is exactly what he wants as it creates chaos. 2. Perhaps Satan did not write the Bible, perhaps it was Bob, the true evil one. Maybe Bob maintains all the characteristics of Satan as we know him, but because he doesn't want to look like the bad guy, he changed the name of the figure in the Bible to Satan. You act as if you know Satan and how he would act, but you only know the Bible's description of Satan. If Bob or Satan wrote the Bible, then you only know what he wants you to know, and described to scare you into the Biblical trap. The whole point of this is to show you that all that "truth" you people spout off is no more credible than this scenerio. Nor is it any more credible than any of the other religions out there.

Can a document not have truth mixed with lies Edric? You look at this from a far too black and white perspective. Nor did I say that in this "religion" the Bible true. I only meant that Satan would certainly have given it some appearance of truth in order to trick the masses into following it. I see no contradiction.

But they still put their own biases into how they interperet it. Words, even in their original text are highly succeptable to individual interperetation. It seems to me that an omnipotent being would have found a more efficient way to get his message across.

I don't possibly know how you could feel that you did not insult me, but ok, whatever. I would MUCH more readily accept that way of thinking than the common form of religion. As I said, I accept theism as a natural condition of humanity, even though I disagree with it. However, don't confuse voicing my opinion with mindless, and pointless christian bashing. You mentioned that you wonder why Acriku spends so much time posting on religion if he is atheist. I can tell you why I do, and this is only one of four sites I go to, so I DO often debate with those religious "scholars". I don't find much opportunity to discuss my beliefs with those around me. Most either don't care, or are so brainwashed that all I get is "you are going to hell!". So my refuge for working out my thoughts is on the internet. I learn from hearing other people's opinions, giving mine, and getting feedback. It helps me to get a wide variety of opinions to consider in my search for truth. So, even though I don't have any reason to "bash" your ideology, I might still debate for the sake of learning yet another point of view. If we could keep it civil, I think it could be somewhat enlightening since I have never heard of non-denominational christianity. I'll do that, but not tonight. I think my wife is getting impatient with how long I have been down here. ;D

No, I have no problem with theism. I don't agree with it, but I accept it. The problem lies when people believe in absolutes, and those that profess to know them. As you do. The problem comes from the fact that most people around the world would prefer to be sheep than to be thinkers. Most are those "weak" christians that you put yourself above. Those "bad apples" merely use this blindness inherent in religion to their own ends. This goes straight to my scenerio. What if the Bible was truly written by Satan? What if he used this energy for his own ends? The religious, even you, are enslaved by the absolutes of the Bible. How could you possibly respond with anything to disprove this?

What Gunwounds? You spit off a post of insults and that makes you the authority? ::) Refute the "what if's" then if you are the "Biblical scholar" Otherwise, I will lump you in with the other weak faithed christians. We see the results of this persecution everyday. Biblical "scholars" teaching that evolution is heresy and the work of Satan. Muslims killing infadels in the Jihad, parents warning their kids of the "evils" of heresy from those with different ideals, preachers telling their congreation to follow their truth ro go to hell, evengelists blaming homosexuals for the tragedies of the times, the list goes on and on. Intolerance runs rampant in the religious community. Realize too, that these "weak faithed christians" represent the masses. They are the true voice of their religion, and are easily influence by those "scholars". It's sad that you find it amusing since these are the ones who will propogate their weakness to the future generations.