Evolution and Creation

[Edric O]

My point: Practice what you preach.

You say that the world would be better without religion because religion causes wars, yet you follow something 1000 times more bloody and violent than religion! And you would even die for it!

[Acriku]

I never said the world would be better without. I actually said that religion is good in that it keeps people good. It prevents people from massacring because they lost a job, when instead they pray and become happy.

And I would die for my country because MY country is where I lived in for the past 16 years and I have grown to love MY country. MY country may have had a civil war, and all these other wars, but I still love MY country. It is truly in my mind the best there is.

[Edric O]

Good. At least you have a rational opinion.

Anyone that loves his country and yet complains that "religion starts wars" is a hypocrite.

Besides, as I have shown in a previous post, religion is NEVER the real cause. Only a convenient excuse.

[Acriku]

Religion may be THE cause, but it is a major factor most definitely. And of course countries start wars, I'm not denying that, but I still love mine.

[Edric O]

Come on, show me ONE religious war caused by Christians that didn't have something to do with material gain!

Besides, "thou shall not kill" is clear enough. Which part of it didn't they understand?

Probably the "unless you can get rich by killing" part... ::)

[Acriku]

So you are saying that because people are greedy, religion has nothing to do with wars?

[TMA_1]

religion is one of many fulcrums of war.

[Edric O]

No, I'm saying that if you ignore a direct commandment of your God, then you're not much of a believer. Christianity is against killing in ANY circumstances. Anyone who ignores that is not much of a Christian.

So, if these people went directly against the Word of God, there must be something else motivating them, not religion.

[pointybum]

Oh come on Edric, you are not honestly saying that for sure.

Look at the human sacrifices that has aided war - the khamikaze, look at the afghan mob who think they are going to paradise. I mean, although not entirely relevent, look at the Aztecs - they honestly thought that the sun wouldnt rise unless they chucked a few live bodies into the flaming pits. Its all religiously inspired - that hidden tower of strength that these people need in order to carry out the deeds they need to carry out, whatever they maybe. It's a mind game, all part and parcel of being brainwashed, although in some cases not a bad thing.

I am talking about being led, led by their faith. Look at the sniper, he's religiously led, look at the mafias, look at those on death row - they think about nothing but the otherside, look all around you. Even people being born on the same side, its that invisible doctrine that changes the way we do things - throw a specific religion into it and you know who your friends are and who you cannot mingle with or trust (in some places in the world).

We cannot change history, but we can at least interpret things from a modern perspective because science allows us to create that other perspective. I wouldnt be thinking like this if I was born a hundred years ago, I'd probably have a faith and I would be guided by it to my destiny.

I am asking you to compare, in history, and in present. Religiously motivated causes - 9/10 ends up in bloodshed whereas non-religiously motivated dont. It is a slightly sweeping comment but I am trying to illustrate without wandering too far from what I have been talking about.

As in my previous post, what would this planet be like if there was no religion?

Do you think it would be a happier place? Picture it in your mind for a second and answer me on that one.

:)

[Edric O]

I still can't understand how someone can blatantly ignore something as simple and straightforward as "thou shall not kill".

But then again, neither the kamikaze, the Afghans or the Aztecs were christians.

How would a world without religion look life? Well, besides the small fact that everyone would be going to hell, let's look at it objectively.

Without anything to give people an objective moral code, moral relativism would reign supreme. This might seem harmless, but it is not. Many people would begin to follow social darwinism, with obvious consequences. Hedonist thought would also appeal to a huge number of people, pushing society into something I would characterize as "completely immoral".

But you of all people, Pointybum, should know that not everyone can cope with the idea that death means oblivion. Poor people will lose all hope, and suicides would reach incredible levels. Everyone in the lower classes would give in to despair, because they would think there is no way out of their miserable existence.

In conclusion, it would be a world without morals and without hope.

[Acriku]

Truth is Edric, we don't know at all. There could be a parellel universe with Earth that has no religion. Our morals are what we thought them to be. No God to be afraid of, etc. Every person on that Earth is united with eachother to form a utopia. No controversy except that of personal morals, which are not many because of lack of religion. People realized logic and began to excel in science and therefore they are more advanced. They know more about this world, and the fact that they don't have religion to worry about gives them the time to make up logical rules to follow, etc. A possibility.

[Dude_Doc]

I don't really think it would work out, not for 5000 years at least. If there wasn't a God, well, people would create one. We would still believe in something. I don't think we would see the difference of good and evil. If there wasn't a God, people would seriously think life is pointless. Like Edric said, the poor and the helpless wouldn't have any hope, because they know no one cares about them.

[Acriku]

Hmm I don't believe in a God and yet I don't commit suicide! Golly! And I bet I'm not alone, searching the timeline of our history.

[Edric O]

Yes, Acriku, but you're not poor, homeless and miserable! THAT is the kind of person who would commit suicide if he/she wouldn't have God to give him/her hope.

There could be a parellel universe with Earth that has no religion. Our morals are what we thought them to be. No God to be afraid of, etc. Every person on that Earth is united with eachother to form a utopia. No controversy except that of personal morals, which are not many because of lack of religion. People realized logic and began to excel in science and therefore they are more advanced. They know more about this world, and the fact that they don't have religion to worry about gives them the time to make up logical rules to follow, etc. A possibility.

Please, Acriku, tell me you're not that naive! We both know what human nature is like! When we don't have a good reason to kill each other, we invent one!

Besides, there are many other things in this world causing much more violence than religion ever did. Countries, for example.

[TMA_1]

but if there is no reason for this world but our own petty ideas. I would go do all sorts of horrible stuff. Because its damn fun to do the "wrong" things. If there is no reason then why hold yourself down with morals?

[pointybum]

I know people have commented that if there was no god there would be no meaning, then how come I dont feel like killing myself every 5 minutes then? After all, I fit in the equation somewhere along the line, and I dont feel I need to answer to anything invisible either in my mind or in presence, nor do I feel guilty about anything I havent done, or done wrong.

So, what you are possibly saying is that somewhere along the line I am going to be vulnerable, get depressed, gather suicidal tendencies due to my lacking of support to the larger spiritual role model.

[TMA_1]

my friend did it. He stopped believing for a long time and just had fun. it has nothing to d o with depression. Having fun while you live is the matter. There were entire groups that followed the hedonistic way of living.

[Repoman]

Dude, Why do you say nothing is proven everything is therorys??? Do you believe that the earth is round is it is still opinion?? Do you believe that water is 1 part hydrogen and 2 part oxygen or do you think it is opinion?? If so then i have no hope of ever proving evolution as your therory states that evidence is irrelevant ::)

Once a brain has been washed in a certain way, it cannot be unwashed - to remove the strength of beliefs removes the will to live, to some anyway, as this belief offered a strong structure of foresight, meaning and purpose.

I don't totally agree with you here. My father was racist and brought me up to be racist yet to this day I am one of the biggest advocates for multiculturlism. People are intelligent and all you have to do to get a person to believe in what you say is to create the right environment for it. I believe it is very difficult for someone to completely change his belief system but not impossible. Therefore i cannot give up trying to create that environment for people. This works vice versa as well. The right environment and i would believe in religion :(

[Anathema]

I must disagree with that either- my father was raised religiously and turned atheist by himself. He doesn't have suicidal tendencies either.

And the "fact" that people would loose their moral code and turn into barbarians if it weren't for religious persons, BS. In medieval times practicly everybody was religious. Were they more civilised then we were? People like you used to burn people like me because they did not share your views and now you say we are the immoral ones?

[Caid Ivik]

Burning people has nothing with religious teachings. In those ages was Church a state, disusing its specifical religious status. Ruled by feudal lords and their lust of power. Because of this they've called any opponents "heretics" and some of them were executed. These people were everything, but not religious. Normal people were religious, also city intelligence was too, if they've fought against "heretics" they were lured by their lords. Of course, it's better alternative to be killed too. Christians must love their enemies, not fight against them. Whole Jesus' preaching is about it.

[pointybum]

Dude, Why do you say nothing is proven everything is therorys??? Do you believe that the earth is round is it is still opinion?? Do you believe that water is 1 part hydrogen and 2 part oxygen or do you think it is opinion?? If so then i have no hope of ever proving evolution as your therory states that evidence is irrelevant ::)

Once a brain has been washed in a certain way, it cannot be unwashed - to remove the strength of beliefs removes the will to live, to some anyway, as this belief offered a strong structure of foresight, meaning and purpose.

I don't totally agree with you here. My father was racist and brought me up to be racist yet to this day I am one of the biggest advocates for multiculturlism. People are intelligent and all you have to do to get a person to believe in what you say is to create the right environment for it. I believe it is very difficult for someone to completely change his belief system but not impossible. Therefore i cannot give up trying to create that environment for people. This works vice versa as well. The right environment and i would believe in religion :(

If you look closer, Repo, I said to some... not all.

[pointybum]

but at the same time, I am talking about religion - Edric is talking about christianity - he keeps referring to 'thou shalt not kill' but there is plenty of killing awright, by christians as well as other faiths. I think it would be wrong to say that if a christian did kill then they werent a true christian, they didnt committ to their faith properly etc.

Religion, as a whole causes more conflicts, misery, and separation more than anything else. I am trying to ask, that if there was no religion, would the world and its inhabitants be arguing less.

[Dezertfish]

Edric, pointybum, as pointy just pointed out you are not talking about the same things. Edric is saying Christianity doesn't actually start wars, inquisitions, etc. that people do for thier own reasons. Pointybum, you think that religion does cause these problems. Am I right in saying this? If not then feel free to clarify.

Ok, there are obviously religions out there that start Jihads and such. I don't think anyone can dispute that.(the 9/11 hijakers obviously believed they were doing allah a service). Then there are cults formed for personal profit.

I personally think that my God would not appreciate it if i went out and killed people who, if i were to kill them, would go straight to hell. I know he wouldn't appreciate me killing other christians either. Now in the bible there were plenty of times God helped people win a battle, or told them to go to war. (Joshua, Judges, 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings for example, have plenty of these instances.) Teh books of law also specify death or other severe punishments for certain sins. However, I do not think that the Crusades, or the inquisition, or the salem witch trials, or the conversion and enslaving of indians by conquistadors was something God wanted. Torturing, or enslaving or killing people definitely violates love thy neighbor as thyself and all the other commandments that encompasses.

It is also important to note that the bible does not indicate that murder is a bigger sin than any of the others. The point is that God hates all sin.

[Acriku]

Dude, Why do you say nothing is proven everything is therorys??? Do you believe that the earth is round is it is still opinion?? Do you believe that water is 1 part hydrogen and 2 part oxygen or do you think it is opinion?? If so then i have no hope of ever proving evolution as your therory states that evidence is irrelevant ::)

Funny I thought water was 2 Hydrogen and 1 Oxygen but I'm just picky and had a major test on biology today ;)

Yes Dez Edric is defending Christianity only, which implies he thinks Christianity is the better religion...

Edric I wasn't being naive I was being open-minded. If we took religion out of the equation, that would be taking out a part of our core instincts, the instinct of cowering in the corner when you think there is nothing after death. So if you take that, then you have to take some other things or the equation wouldn't be balanced. You don't take a part of our instinct away and put us in a cage to see what happens. It is not that simple.

[Anathema]

Yes Dez Edric is defending Christianity only, which implies he thinks Christianity is the better religion...

Duh. That's what religion is about. Only you and your fellow christians go to heaven, and the rest, including the jews, muslims, budhists and atheists all go to hell. Damn you're so superior.