Evolution and Creation

[Caid Ivik]

Use one of the newest additions to the science. Time is relative. "Amount" of time is a nonsense word. It's a way of events in this universe, so God is untouchable by it. It's impossible to say were God is, if he is creator of "position system". God created this space, this dimension and matter. Also he created laws, which will these substances follow. Following these unchangable physical laws matter became Earth. Here he gave other laws, which created life with its own properties of existence. And as last thinghe gave to this world part of him - intelligence.

[Dezertfish]

God is the creation of the logical mind, and the logical mind wants to worship in its own logical way, the problem with that is it doesnt stay there - it's everyone's unique interpretation that ruins it for others if it doesnt agree. This whole thread doesnt one bit answer the real meaning of the message behind religion other than to confirm that it causes arguements. Spread that to a global issue and you have the world as we see it today, completely argumentative.

Saying that we created God is ..... crazy. Im sure you know the possibilities of the universe's existance, an outside force created it(in a word, God), it created itself, or it has always existed. Since we know that it HAD a beginning, and you are eliminating the possibility that someone else created it...

Are you blaming religions for starting arguments? Any two people with thier own minds can start an argument. Thats one of the best ways for two people to agree on a subject, or at least understand each other.

Thats why I have suggested some of the things - science gives logical reasoning, religion offers logical hope but no meaning to a person who sees science as a sensible divider between reality and myth.

Ok, so you admit that you blind yourself

The best part of it is that nobody can explain the things before 2000AD - all the old monuments - stonehenge, easter island, the giant balls in Sri Lanka etc. These prove that civlisations had come and gone before the one we have now today, so does the bible to whatever faith disregard these previous civlilisations?

At the end of the day, its what makes you happy, so as long as it doesnt make another unhappy is my motto. But that isnt the case, it makes the world argue and I resent that.

These prove of mankind's existence before christ and therefore things went on before

Of course things went on before! The bible admits that things happened before Christ, more than half of it talks about this, its called the OLD TESTAMENT. It also tells of peoples getting "scattered" and "languages confused". No the bible does not disregard them, except for the fact that they lived so far away with no communication. They were not close enough to God's chosen people to be written about. Boo hoo.

P.S.

I you hate arguments so much, then why do you argue?

[Caid Ivik]

Good PS. Our social evolution is based on arguments. We need them to improve our world. God gave us liberty, so to hate arguments is despotical.

[Anathema]

They were not close enough to God's chosen people to be written about. Boo hoo.

Indeed, the bible was written by man.

Thats why I have suggested some of the things - science gives logical reasoning, religion offers logical hope but no meaning to a person who sees science as a sensible divider between reality and myth.

Ok, so you admit that you blind yourself

Or he says that you are fooling yourself.

It also tells of peoples getting "scattered" and "languages confused".

For people to scatter, you first need to unite people, like the story of Babel. But how couls people from Eurasia unite themselves with the people in America and Australia ::)?

[pointybum]

God is the creation of the logical mind, and the logical mind wants to worship in its own logical way, the problem with that is it doesnt stay there - it's everyone's unique interpretation that ruins it for others if it doesnt agree. This whole thread doesnt one bit answer the real meaning of the message behind religion other than to confirm that it causes arguements. Spread that to a global issue and you have the world as we see it today, completely argumentative.

Saying that we created God is ..... crazy. Im sure you know the possibilities of the universe's existance, an outside force created it(in a word, God), it created itself, or it has always existed. Since we know that it HAD a beginning, and you are eliminating the possibility that someone else created it...

Are you blaming religions for starting arguments? Any two people with thier own minds can start an argument. Thats one of the best ways for two people to agree on a subject, or at least understand each other.

Thats why I have suggested some of the things - science gives logical reasoning, religion offers logical hope but no meaning to a person who sees science as a sensible divider between reality and myth.

Ok, so you admit that you blind yourself

The best part of it is that nobody can explain the things before 2000AD - all the old monuments - stonehenge, easter island, the giant balls in Sri Lanka etc. These prove that civlisations had come and gone before the one we have now today, so does the bible to whatever faith disregard these previous civlilisations?

At the end of the day, its what makes you happy, so as long as it doesnt make another unhappy is my motto. But that isnt the case, it makes the world argue and I resent that.

These prove of mankind's existence before christ and therefore things went on before

Of course things went on before! The bible admits that things happened before Christ, more than half of it talks about this, its called the OLD TESTAMENT. It also tells of peoples getting "scattered" and "languages confused". No the bible does not disregard them, except for the fact that they lived so far away with no communication. They were not close enough to God's chosen people to be written about. Boo hoo.

P.S.

I you hate arguments so much, then why do you argue?

These arguements are all based on the creation of the human mind, it's all hypothesis. You are resting your whole arguement based on an old book, I am resting my whole mind on the science of things. So, which is the saner arguement.

And yes, it only takes 2 to argue, but it more apparant when we are talking global, the multitude of faiths cause fights and misery as it has always done throughout history.

You present a very weak response to my thread - judging by your comment 'why I argue' etc. I am not argumentative - check the history of these threads and you will see who is doing the arguing.

I am trying to ask why people see that their religion is the true religion and the others have to like it or lump it. People seldom lump it so they get into a discussion instead, and then argue with it, fight with it, and die for it, all over assumed projections.

I am trying to fathom out if the world would be a nicer place if religion werent in the equasion, so far nobody has offered a hindsight to that.

[emprworm]

Question 1: what created God?

God is uncaused. Nothing created God. God has infinite attributes. If God had a beginning, then God could not be eternal, and therefore God would need a cause.

Question 2a: if God existed forever, was there an infinite amount of time before he finally decided to build Earth? That hurts my brain.

time is a measurement of change. No change, no time. God Himself is immutable. You cannot measure time prior to the existing natural universe since no such relative existence existed. Therefore the answer to your question is yes to God existing forever, no to ininfite time.

2b: if God didn't get created by another entity, but was suddenly there, how could an entity such as God just suddenly be there?

funny that you ask this because modern atheistic thought says that the entire universe just suddenly got here. The answer to your question is that there was never a point where there was nothing, and then there was God. God is eternal. He had no beginning. The moment you say "who created God" you are saying God is no longer eternal. And that would not be the greatest possible being.

[pointybum]

Question 1: what created God?

God is uncaused. Nothing created God. God has infinite attributes. If God had a beginning, then God could not be eternal, and therefore God would need a cause.

Question 2a: if God existed forever, was there an infinite amount of time before he finally decided to build Earth? That hurts my brain.

time is a measurement of change. No change, no time. God Himself is immutable. You cannot measure time prior to the existing natural universe since no such relative existence existed. Therefore the answer to your question is yes to God existing forever, no to ininfite time.

2b: if God didn't get created by another entity, but was suddenly there, how could an entity such as God just suddenly be there?

funny that you ask this because modern atheistic thought says that the entire universe just suddenly got here. The answer to your question is that there was never a point where there was nothing, and then there was God. God is eternal. He had no beginning. The moment you say "who created God" you are saying God is no longer eternal. And that would not be the greatest possible being.

Says who? You, the book, your teachers, your parents? Who?

You keep going round in circles with this - who says all this? Put your answers together versus scientific discovery - or are you going to rubbish science aswell.

[quoudam72]

Well since this has come to this

Atheism: God does not exist in any form. Everything is explained through naturalistic means.

Agnosticism: God may or may not exist. We do not or cannot know what or who God is.

Pantheism: God is all and all is God. God is part of reality; he does not transcend it.

Deism: God transcends the world, but does not actively participate in it. God created the world, but allows it to run on its own.

Theism: God exists both outside the world and within the world. God both created the world and participates in it.

Choose one ;) ;D

[emprworm]

Says who? You, the book, your teachers, your parents? Who?

says logic. Obviously it is impossible for an eternal being to have a beginning. It is as rediculous as saying "I always lie". It is irrational and therefore impossible.

You keep going round in circles with this - who says all this? Put your answers together versus scientific discovery - or are you going to rubbish science aswell.

scientific discovery can only examine the present. I admit that I have faith. It is the so called scientists in here that keep trying to make it sound like they have no faith. You want everything backed by scientific discovery? Well why dont you start first, then. Please tell me exactly what scientific discovery says that the universe popped into existence via some gargantuan quantuum fluctuation? What sicentific discovery says that an explosion creates anything? Funny how the 'big bang' - an explosion the size of quadrillions of nuclear bombs somehow creates all this. Have you ever heard of dropping a nuclear bomb on a city, blowing it up, then all the pieces falling back together again, re-forming the city? Lol. Thats precisely what your so-called "science" is postulating. But wheres the observation? There is none. No one was there at the Big Bang. No one. Period. Puny little homosapiens roughly 2 meters tall, 90% water, who eat Big Macs and drink Pepsi are going to say what happened billions and billions of years ago? THEY HAVE NO IDEA. If you want to believe the universe go here from nothing and that things just pop into existence by themselves, go ahead. But you dont have any scientific proof behind you either. It takes faith to believe that. At least belief in God is logical. The law of causality and conservation of energy is preserved through believing in Creation. Believing that the universe got here by itself violates causality and the law of conservation of energy, as well as every other law of physics. it is the atheists, ironically, that deny the laws of science with their world view. Not the creationists.

[emprworm]

QUandom, I like what you say, but your definition of Agnosticism is not practical. Agnosticim more accurately states that

"Even though God cannot be denied, God cannot be known, therefore belief in God is irrational" - this is the position of every agnostic work I have ever read, including every agnostic I have ever spoken to. All of them see belief in God as irrational.

[TMA_1]

"Question 2a: if God existed forever, was there an infinite amount of time before he finally decided to build Earth? That hurts my brain."

Earthnuker Time is not infinite. Time-space was created and science even says so. You can see it by distortions in space-time. Such as large objects in space. God exists inside and outside of time. He is omnipresent.

[pointybum]

Thanks TMA

And now onto the actual god bit. So-called scientist I am not Empworm, I am an open minded person. All you have done is convince me how brainwashed you are.

There is nothing wrong with a clean brain, its what you fill it with.

[DjCiD]

It also tells of peoples getting "scattered" and "languages confused".

For people to scatter, you first need to unite people, like the story of Babel. But how couls people from Eurasia unite themselves with the people in America and Australia ::)?

Easy after the graft Flood ther ewas only a few ppl left to repopulation the world. Guess what they all spoke the same language. Meaning after Noah and untill the Tower of Babel, all language was the same.

[Sneakgab]

''Nebulas are created when a sun explodes.

Before the big bang, all matter and energy were focused in one point. The density and temperature were practicly infinite. There was no real time or real dimensions, so in fact nothing exploded.

oooooooooh paradox .

[emprworm]

pointybum, have faith in whatever you want. Just make sure you call it for what it is: faith. Don't confuse faith with science. Too many atheists do that.

I have faith, I admit it. Belief in God is logical and rational. I see it as more rational than belief in the 2 alternatives: either an eternal cyclical universe (which no one believes- not even atheistic scientists), or the universe just "popped" into existence. Lol that is so absurd, I honestly don't know how anyone could claim to be rational and hold a view like that. But to each man - including the atheist - his religion.

[Sneakgab]

Who's Online?

Results: Team of philosphers debating the universe,life and everything... currently viewing Evelution and creation ;D

[Acriku]

Oh boy. I actually tried to reply last night but couldn't for some reason, I hit post but it didn't post anything lol.

because it is logically impossible that God could be a thought. A thought is the by-product of a mind. A thought cannot exist without intelligence. God is the greatest possible being. If God is a thought, then God cannot be the greatest possible being, since that thought would have to be produced in a greater mind.

God must never be defined as something illogical.

The moment you define god as an illogical being, then we can empirically say that such a defined being does not exist. Therefore GOd cannot be a "blip"

Gob I have tried three times posting this piece of crap. I had so much, damn! Here I am trying for the fourth time:

You have no basis for what you preach about God. Only what the molested Bible tells you. You pray to a God you know nothing about, where as the molested Bible has become so molested over the many years, the image of God may have been distorted. Even now when humanity is becoming more lax on religion, the image distorts after every generation. In society God is a all-loving shining light that helps us out all the time, and in the molested Bible it talks about condoning acts that are prohibited to be done by an all-loving shining light that helps us out all the time. The molested Bible was written in a time of little morality being practiced, and shown in a society where morality is questioned every day, it's a wonder why many people still follow it.

A thought. Logic dictates that it requires a mind. Given. But did you not say God is outside of logic and Time? Therefore, my theory of a thought still stands. A thought does not need a mind outside of logic. A thought that has always been, and always is, and always will be. Show me proof that this is false, and I'll show you proof that your God is false.

Saying that we created God is ..... crazy. Im sure you know the possibilities of the universe's existance, an outside force created it(in a word, God), it created itself, or it has always existed. Since we know that it HAD a beginning, and you are eliminating the possibility that someone else created it...

Are you blaming religions for starting arguments? Any two people with thier own minds can start an argument. Thats one of the best ways for two people to agree on a subject, or at least understand each other.

Dezert it isn't crazy. It's probable, that we created God in our minds, the instinct to be afraid of suddenly falling out of existence needs hope and God was it.

Religion is to blame for starting a lot of arguments, take this for example. We are arguing, about religion, it started with religion, therefore it's blamed on religion. But it isn't a bad thing, this argument only however - Crusades, etc, were bad.

God is uncaused. Nothing created God. God has infinite attributes. If God had a beginning, then God could not be eternal, and therefore God would need a cause.

Empr, who says? A molested book that you follow so blindly? Yep. Strange how you can put so much faith into pieces of paper and ink.

funny that you ask this because modern atheistic thought says that the entire universe just suddenly got here. The answer to your question is that there was never a point where there was nothing, and then there was God. God is eternal. He had no beginning. The moment you say "who created God" you are saying God is no longer eternal. And that would not be the greatest possible being.

Theorizing that something started it all is a lot more logical and probable than something that always was. You guys go into so much detail it's becoming a fine science (so to speak) and it all comes from personal thoughts and a book.

Easy after the graft Flood ther ewas only a few ppl left to repopulation the world. Guess what they all spoke the same language. Meaning after Noah and untill the Tower of Babel, all language was the same.

Not so easy if you can't prove Noah and the Flood ;)

Also I forgot to add something to my posts... science has many paradoxs... for example, space is theoretically infinite because even if you get past the ''space'' nothing is still something so it goes on for infinity, but there is no such thing as infinity? some say that the universe grows, but this is a meaningless explanation because what if you could somehow produce a ship that traveled faster than the universe could grow?

Who said science was perfect? The Bible says it's perfect because it's the Word of God, which can never change and always will be the Word of God and will be the truth. Science never shouted perfection, obviously enough, so paradoxes in science is common and isn't significant in disproving a part of science.

Where did all that compressed matter and energy come from?

We don't know, and unlike people like you, that won't deter us to try find out the answer.

I have faith, I admit it. Belief in God is logical and rational. I see it as more rational than belief in the 2 alternatives: either an eternal cyclical universe (which no one believes- not even atheistic scientists), or the universe just "popped" into existence. Lol that is so absurd, I honestly don't know how anyone could claim to be rational and hold a view like that. But to each man - including the atheist - his religion.

If the belief in God is logical and rational, then what is the use of faith? If the belief is so fine and dandy there wouldn't be any athiests. People look at facts, you look at absurdities and a mythological book.

[Inoculator9]

Regards to the last part of your post, no religion is really logical and rational. The existence of a God is totally illogical. Religion is a leap of faith. Religion obviously requires faith, it's even said that a person's religion is their faith. It is what they put their faith in.

[Anathema]

I don't see how you could logicly reason there must be a higher entity that spawned us. Sure, there is "evidence" against evolution, but if there's a God, who created God? What's that? God is not a creation by anything because he's not tied to any nature laws? Is that logic ::)?

[Acriku]

Yes I know, I was making light of Empr's statement that the belief is logical and rational. Faith in fact tells you that it isn't logical or rational.

[Inoculator9]

God having existed forever is illogical. It's just impossilbe, but like I said, it requires a leap of faith.

[emprworm]

You have no basis for what you preach about God. Only what the molested Bible tells you.

Patently absurd. I believed in God long before I ever read the Bible. I concluded that He existed based upon my knowledge of science,logic and observations regarding the universe. I concluded this before I ever read anything in the Bible or even knew about it.

You pray to a God you know nothing about,

granted, I dont know everything about GOd, but there are many things that we CAN know about Him just by observing His creation. We know God must be moral since He created moral beings. We know God must be personal since we are personal beings. God must be all powerful since He made such a vast universe. God must be logical since the universe is logical. God must be uncaused since all finite things require a first cause and since God is the greatest possible being, he cannot have a cause lest He himself be inferior to something greater than Himself.

where as the molested Bible has become so molested over the many years

how do you know this? The new testament is the most reliable ancient text in the world with almost 30,000 manuscripts. The next CLOSEST thing is Homers Illiad with only 650 manuscripts. Just 650! The History of Thucydides has 8 manuscripts, the earliest being from the 10th Century AD, 1,300 years after his death. For Plato, we have 11 manuscripts, the earliest being dated about 1,250 years after his death. Thats right. let me say it again real slow to let it sink in: (nice and slow this time)

THE EARLIEST MANUSCRIPT WE HAVE OF PLATO WAS WRITTEN 1,250 YEARS AFTER HIS DEATH. THERE ARE ONLY 11 TOTAL IN EXISTENCE

AND YET historians do not say that his works were "molested." Most historians will agree that the writings we have of Plato today are "unmolested".

And here is the allmighty Acriku

[Inoculator9]

You have that last part a bit mixed up. Blind faith is not knowing about what you have faith in. You don't know that the beauty of our world couldn't have occured naturally. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Earth was originally a world with a carbon methane atmosphere. Creatures lived in this, and maybe civilization began and they thought that their brown air and disgusting water was beautiful. Most atheists I know are very intelligent people, people become atheist because they don't want the blind faith they are forced to have by religion. Atheists have thought their paths out, while religious people don't know their paths and many don't want to, it is just something that is going to happen. It isn't we have control over our lives. We make decisions for ourselves.

[Anathema]

atheism: blind faith

creationism: intelligent faith

Analyses: flame.

Atheists do not claim to know all the basics of the creation of the universe. Creationists do. Atheists can be convinced to believe in other theories if a better one shows up. You stick to the same story written 2,000 years ago, possibly written by a drunken sheppard.

You claim God has always been there. There was no point in time God created the universe, because there was no time before he did so (did I get that right?). Big bang theory states there was a single point of matter with nearly infinite temperature (energy), and it exploded (dimensions were non applicant, so there was in fact no time before it happened).

[Inoculator9]

Exactly. Atheists are always open to change.