Jurassic Park, reality?

[Navaros]

Man *should* not play God.

There are many immoral, pervese abominations man undertakes against nature in order to play God.

Example: Test Tube babies

Another Example: Cloning

those are just two of many.

[Lord J]

Wow, I would have guessed most of you would be more open to cloning. Ahh well, I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other. I'm not sure we should throw out cloning all together, as I would like to see a sabretooth tiger, or an actual wooly mammoth. Not to mention Dodos, tasmanian tigers, or almost anything else that is extinct. Of course, we have our own animals facing extinction as well, Pandas, Dingoes, Cheetas and the all-famous whale or two. With animals I'm for it. But with humans, I simply don't see the point. Isn't overpopulation *already* a problem?

[Edric O]

*shoots Acriku* Human scum! ;D Join the Animals' Liberation Army! :)

Back on topic now...

Animals are not inferior. What they lack is intelligence (or consciousness, or whatever you want to call it). But is intelligence such a good thing? Look where it brought us! One step from nuking the planet to hell! We are the only lifeform having a choice on whether to obey or disobey God. And what did we choose? The wrong answer, of course...

Humans are DIFFERENT from animals. Not superior, just different.

And I would like to point out that we are doing plants a great injustice here. We keep talking about humans and animals, yet treat plants as if they aren't even alive... this is wrong.

Plants are my favorite... uh, lifeforms, because they're the only ones that don't have to kill in order to live.

P.S. Of course all clones have souls. Why wouldn't they? Just because we acted stupid as usual, doesn't mean the poor clone has to take the punishment of not having a soul.

[Timenn]

Well, when are you having 'best' as animal? We all seek a way to survive. But maybe also a way to have 'fun'. I mean, feeling good. If I see my cat lying on a chair. Fully satisfied. And I have to cycle through the rain a few minutes later. I wonder who is better off

[Terror]

Humans are not better but we are the dominating species right now. physical strenght is no longer that makes a species superior. Our intelligence and our ability to use tools has changed the world forever. The problem with us however is that we seek more and more and that at the cost of other living beings, even at the cost of our brethern's lives. We wage war not for survival but for different ideas and wealth. Perhaps it is sometimes better to be as intelligent as animals who don't seek to better their lives but only try to survive.

While animals may kill others they do it foor food and survival. Humans kill for other reasons, stupid reasons, our wealth has made us arrogant and we constantly seek to become better than others. Perhaps it's time that mother nature interferes and brings all species back to an equal level.

Don't get me wrong I am proud at my race, what we've achieved and what we know. But in certain points i think that we just make huge mistakes and we can be more cruel than any other creature.

[The_Sadukar]

I don't see why everybody wants God involved, we are grownup specie (sort of) we should abel to take care of ourselves, and TMA_1 if all mamal life should be kept safe, why should't all reptile life be kept safe ???.

And why is it okay to clone an animal, but wrong to clone a human ???.

But don't get me wrong. I'am not proud of my specie, we are smart, we are advanced and some of us are even hairy, but let's face it we are just animals, just puny mortal animals.

[Timenn]

We ARE animals yes. But we feel that we have the responsability, what seperates us from other animals.

And I don't believe in god, but I don't mind if people see us human as the responsibles of God's creation. And so we have to be careful with it. But NOT in the way some people think, that it is here for us alone. And we may use it as we wish

[ordos45]

Plants, can kill to live, or at least some can. Venus fly traps, pitcher plants, etc.

Umm, about the Animal Liberation Army. I'm nervous around talk like that. Some eco-terrorists plant spikes in trees to protect the habitat of the animals in it. Someone's uncle on another message board was chopping wood for his fireplace on the edge of a logging camp and was killed by the spike.

Another eco-terrorist trick is to lay down spikes in the fall, and cover them with the leaves scattered upon the ground. Logging truck rolls over the spikes and boom, tires go and the truck crashes.

[DjCiD]

GO here for a link on that elephant / mammoth thingy

Edit- sorry had wrong link and lost the right link :-

[aox0m0xoa]

wait wait wait, i thought the whole reason animals didnt go to heaven is because they didnt have a soul. isnt this what christianity says?

[The_Sadukar]

I belive so :P

[Navaros]

I never saw anywhere in the Bible that says animals don't have a soul. I think the Bible says animals *do* have a soul 'cause God even sees when a sparrow dies.

Cats are the coolest creatures ever. You'd never get me to believe that those brilliant cats of mine don't have souls. Animals must have souls. Animals are *better* than mankind, generally speaking. Animals are much more civil and moral than humans.

[ordos45]

Once again, this time on the soul part, I agree with Nav.

[Acriku]

Example: Test Tube babies

Normal people can come from test tubes. The defects from test tubes can happen just as much as normal defects in the womb.

*shoots Acriku* Human scum! Join the Animals' Liberation Army!

Owie *rubs arm*.

But is intelligence such a good thing? Look where it brought us!

Exactly! It got us where we are today! The top of the food chain, the explorer of space, the evolutionary stars! No way in a million years would an animal other than humans launch a shuttle to explore further worlds. Excluding the rarest of rare mutant gene in the precise delicate structure and code that would allow the advancing of evolution at an increased speed to get to the point of launching a shuttle. Humanity was rare enough, another animal species is just exponentially rare. Sure we have the capability to launch nukes, but we haven't blown ourselves to kingdom-come yet, so something must be right with humanity so far.

Humans are not better but we are the dominating species right now

Doesn't this seem contradicting? How do you think we got to be the dominating species? Because of natural selection, nature has filled just the right niche's and we survived. Survival of the fittest.

We wage war not for survival but for different ideas and wealth

Yes a bad quality we humans have (greed), but also imagine what would be going on now if we haven't done things in the past that have involved greed, e.g. USA was made to what it is because of the greed of Chris Columbus.

Perhaps it's time that mother nature interferes and brings all species back to an equal level.

Equal level? Impossible! If it was at an equal level, the species dependant on dominating prey to feed would die out, then overpopulation of the prey would happen, mostly herbivores, and then all plant food is eaten over time then all of them die out, and the species dependant on the mutual interactions of eachother to survive will die out, and we all die happily ever after.

Animals are much more civil and moral than humans.

Animals do not do the evil things we do because they are made to only survive, they do not have the chance to evil things. Now dolphins, hehe, naughty little guys. ;) Dolphins have sex for pleasure just like us, are they evil?

Now we can go on and on about whether or not animal minds are really advanced or not advanced, but I'm just saying what I believe.

[Lord J]

According to Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Humans are only the third most intelligent species on Earth.

I don't think the Bible says much of anything about animals having souls. Once again, Christians take the initiative to teach something the Bible simply doesn't answer.

On most subjects, Navaros and I are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, and this subject is not much different, except I agree with you on the intelligence of cats. Anyone notice the certain felinoid aspects on the latest face on Mars?

I think life has less to do with good and evil, but a compromise between the two. Some religions, even some Christians teach a person must sin every day, and that if you have a relationship with the Father, then all is complete.

[Acriku]

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is a good reading, but only theories (42 is the answer to everything baby!).

I would like to know what the first two are for argumentative purposes :)

My theory is that humans have the ability to do many things, it is the person alone that decides what to do with the abilities, and thus good and evil come out in people. It is the individual, not the species.

[Edric O]

Yes, but good people are rare, while evil, greedy people are at every corner... and so, overall, humanity is evil. IMO anyway.

Acriku, I know humans are "the fittest" species on Earth and that, by evolutionnary laws, we are entitled to dominate the planet. But are we nothing more than animals? Do we have to be slaves to our instincts? NO! We are an intelligent, self-aware species! We can OVERRIDE our animal urges and show that we are indeed worthy of being the guardians of life on Earth! ...But we're not doing that, are we? We're bowing down to our primary instincts just like everyone else. Is intelligence really so weak?

Ordos45... I'm half-sympathetic to eco-terrorits. Their cause is just, but their means are controversial at best. I do feel that the Earth would be a much better place if humans didn't exist. The only good thing we can do to make up for all our sins against the planet is to spread life across the galaxy, to terraform worlds and create thousands of pale blue-green spheres teeming with life! But, obviously, we're not doing it... :(

In the matter of eco-terrorism, this is where I stand: Any eco-terrorism that destroys property or causes financial damages is good. If it affects human health or life, however, it is evil.

P.S. The Bible doesn't say anything about animals not having souls. Where did you get the strange idea that they don't have souls? I think they do. Well, except single-cell organisms and some lower invertebrates.

[gryphon]

No, Ordod45 started another topic like this !

Can I join, can I can I ? :)

Are we as humans the fittist species on this world ? Wouldn't that depend on the survival thread we face at a specific moment ?

And animals only act "rational" where humans act stupid in some cases, using unnessecary vionence and such ? Don't think that would really hold up. You know lions for example choice there mate. On body, phisical properties. So they discriminate to, without reason they pick the ones with dark and long hair. In a way the same as a human not liking another human just becuase of the way he looks.

Now this behavior of the lions is biological explanable, the darker seem to be more fit and stronger. Mayby the same applies to humans, with the hand thingy that Canadian just explored. People who have unequel hands and other body features appear to more sceptical about relations and are usually picked out as mates after others.

The fact that we as humans kill a lot of other animals, even have made entire species extinct. Why should that be bad ? The dinosours are extinct. That just happends in nature. At some point nature itself or other animals kill a entire group of animals because they can't survive in the present ecosystem. We as humans kill then [ they get extinct because of us ], but we are a part of nature. Not more then biological creatures in nature who kill other animals. Who's to say that our actions arn't biological but self controled and those of other animals are just biological ?

But on the subject of "Jurassic Park". I've read about something simular a few months ago, but you [ at least I ] never hear the result of it. It should be possible. Mayby not now but in a few decenia's.

And should we do it, morally, Playing God ?

What makes any of you think we are playing God ?

A bit egoistic to start comparing us with God.

And for what, just beacuse we can clone something ? That's not a big deal is it. It would be playing God if we had nothing to start with and then create a who ecosystem.

Not just clone a animal, that's a verry verry small piece of creation. Look at making babies. No one is playing God then. [ screaming "Oh god" while the act takes place obviously doesn't count :) ] And cloning / bioengenering is just an ertificial way of that "making babies" process.

We use existing cells and let then grow. We don't create the cells themselfs. And the second would be more playing God then just letting them grow.

Again, it's just our "human superiorety" that tells us we are more then animals, we can overcome that animal instinct and be rational. That same "human superiorety" is telly us we are playing God.

But tell me really, are we playing God or mearly patting ourself on the back ?

[ has any of you read Wolfram's A new kinf of science ? about how verry simple systems can have totally random and unforseen results. ]

[Timenn]

gryphon, the Dinosaurs were extinct by the Impact of the comet. And for example the Sauropoda (the dino's with those long necks) were extinct because of the rising sea-level. This were not-biological reasons. So you can't compare them with the human-reasons

But as you said, some species extinct because another specie took it's place, so there wasn't any food for the other specie. Or they ate them because they fitted in their eco-system. But this was all a matter of survival.

So maybe you can't really blame humans for letting the Dodo(that bird-specie on R

[gryphon]

They got extinct by non-biological reasons / causes ?

Isn't not being able to survive in your biological surroundings [ like drowning, to warm climate, to much co2 in the air ] a biological and ecological reason ?

Because the creatures couldn't survive in that biological climate, they died. It was nature who so to speak caused there exstinction. Just as Darwin's theory proclaims. When a biological entity isn't able to adapt to his surroundings that creature will die.

And no, you're right. There is no justification for hunting down whales just for one product. Or killing all the elephants just for there ivory.

But there isn't a reason we know that made if reasonable for a commet to hit the Earth and kill most of the biological creatures. The point is that there doesn't have to be a reason for every ting that happend. Just not a reason we can understand and eccept. It just happends.

Biological, humans like to use the elephants for parts of there body. So we kill them. That they then die is no more an effect of our need for that stuff. The elephants can't adapt to that, and will die.

Creatur have been killed and getten extinct for centuries, and not just by humans. And for the most simple reasons. Just beucase they got hunted for. They where the hunted and unable to adapt to there their hunter. No further reason should be nessesary.

[ it even corresponds with most of Darwin's theory ]

[Timenn]

Sorry, I meant for non-bioligical reasons, reasons which are not caused by other animals. I used the wrong word

But if we indeed accept this all, NONE of the animals will survive.

And now you are doing if we can't help it that such creatures die. We are busy with finding new technologies to terminate those animals. And we are just blaming them, because they don't adapt?

We aren't taking their place, no we are terminating them!

[Anathema]

I agree with Timenn. I would like to mention a story of a Sf writer called Isaac Asimov who once wrote a story where the only lifeforms left are humans and a special sea-plant that provides them with food. All animal species were eradicated so Earth was able to support billions of people.

On the other hand, we ARE products of evolution, and if this product eradicates other species it could be called natural selection. But since humans are so fond of saying they are better then animals, then they have no right to exterminate animals!

[Usul]

I would like to know what the first two are for argumentative purposes :)

1) Mice

2) Dolphins

[gryphon]

You're right again ;)

Species don't survive. They adapt, constantly. Sometimes fast, others over millions of years, but they will adapt to new situations.

The second part is a bit more difficult. If you would just take the idea Darwin gave about survival, then it would be the fault of the species that die. They should have adapted.

But then I don't think Darwin made such extremist postions, nor should Darwinism be taken to those extreems.

The aspect id a soul in creatures is generally unmentioned as "seperate" entety or effect in Darwin's theory. [ although it is mentioned, not that thoroly ]

Nature itself is more cruel in certain situations, and more generous in others then we might expect. And that's the dualistic part of that position. We want to help others and other animal species, but at the same time we need them to as I described above, to die.

Just as we need cows fot there milk, we need them for there meat to. There is no such thing as right or wrong in nature.

So it is the fault of the creature that dies that it dit. But then it is our fault if we need others beoynd the point of use and start killing in such a manner.

Hope it explains what I mean, and don't take it to extreem. It's just ment to give you an idea of what I mean. So getting the general idea would be sufficient.

:)

[Timenn]

Ok, I was more reacting on your term of that it's not a human problem about whale/elephant hunt etc.

And don't forget the things we do to create Venus on Earth. The Global Warming. That might be another thing, and I won't start it here. But humans have made themselves different. Because they are really able to demolish this world. And so also the area's where those animals live.