Religion

[Mahdi]

I haven't went over this whole thread, but I thought I'd bring stuff up.

Firstly, I don't know who said it, but someone said that many of Gods actions have been evil.

Are you omniscient?  I don't think we can say "If God is real then he is evil because he lets _____ happen".  God, being omniscient, has access to much more information than us, and if he did do something on purpuss that may seem evil to us, it may not actually be evil.  

Next, I've seen a few references to time in here, such as the contradictions posted earlier saying god created beast first, than god created man first.

If God exists,t hen he is omnipotent, if he is omnipotent, than he exists outside the boundarys of time, which means that nothing was created first or second, it all just was created, and therefore those quotes are not contradictions.  

Next, Free Will.  A little theory I worked out because I really didn't like the idea of not having any.  

If God truly is omniscient, than everything we do or have done has always been known to him thereofre it is pre-rdained therefore we have no Free Will.  Thats a common arguement, one I used myself.  But, if you think about it, God, being omnipotent, exists outside of time, therefore everything that will happen has already happen and everything that has happened is yet to happen, and we all already exist in heaven or hell, and that is how God knows everything that anyone is ever going to do.  He knows because we have ALREADY decided how we are going to celebrate our 60th birthday an infinite amount of times.  We made those decisions at the moment God became Omnipotent, otherwse he wouldn't acutally be omnipotent or omniscient.  So every decision we have ever made or ever will make we made at the begging of God's own existence, but WE made the decisions, not him.

Now you'll probably go, well, if God became omnipotent, he couldn't very well have existed forever and created the world, or be God, now could he?  Thats very simple too.  You just have to keep looking outside of time.  Remember a guy named Jesus?  Said he was, not just the son of God, but also God himself? (contrary to what was said earlier int hsi thread, there is conclusive historical evidence that he did exist, which is why Christianity really caught on, and he did have a large following.  REfer back to the connections thread).   Well, sicne God exists outside of time, he could have decided, well, I need to create myself, I'll jsut knock up some Jewish chck.  And Wham!  Instante God.  Jesus dies, becomes omnipotent, becomes one with God, there's the creation of God.  He is his own cause.  He is his own creator.  That also works well agains't the cause and effect arguement:)  For those non-christians,  he could just be a human a few billion years int he future who evolved into an omnipotent creature, and whammo!  same basic theory as the Jesus one.  Or use some future messiah.  Or some other past messiah.  It all works.

[Acriku]

I see your logic on that Mahdi. I also want to just say I am defending my position on religion, after generally being attacked from previous posts. I tried my hardest to not attack anyone, just to point out things and ask for people's responses because I have an open mind. Also, Mahdi: Where did your FoxProductions spoof for Fed2k go? It isn't showing up on my computer. So, with the history of most religious-debating threads repeating itself, I shall observe and post where I feel necessary. Cheers all =)

P.S. Fed, when did you change? You used to be a funny cheery guy, now you are being grumpy and ignorant.

P.P.S. Happy Martin Luther King's Day  ;D

[quoudam72]

I'm ignorant of what you are talking about but I'm not grumpy.

[UsulSK]

> I'm ignorant of what you are talking about but I'm not

> grumpy.

If u are ignorant, why do you keep replying?

[gunner154]

Are you omniscient?

what is omniscient? what does it mean? sorry i live in Singapore and we do not come across such rare words. my apologies if i abused the quote commands as well

[nampigai]

It means all knowing

[hilamobster13]

i thought it was all present.

or is that omniscient? i dont know.ill look it up.

do you know where that reference for my project is?i cannot find it.oh well only one of you knows what i am talking about anyway.

pan, do you want to be MY freind? ;)

[gunner154]

I feel no need to defend myself.

[nampigai]

Omnipresent: all present

Omniscient: all knowing

[gunner154]

thanx ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

oh yeah if u wanna be my friend feel free to look me up on IRC, in ICQ, or just send me a private messages.

"Be friends, it helps."

-gunner154, Commander of All, Seeker of Peace

Signed off

[nampigai]

You're welcome gunner ;)

[gunner154]

;)

anyway starting a post for the sake of making a wink is pointless eh? lol

im looking for more friends, to meet online. email or msg or icq or whatever to contact me. but ive hidden my email ;D

ask me if you're curious why ive hidden it. and if u want to know it, just msg me.

dont expect me to post it though

[quoudam72]

Usul, why do I keep replying? I have an explanation but it my be beyond your understanding of why I have done what I have done on this thread. I have not intended for that statement to be an insult in all honesty it is not. You may see it as ignorant (my replies) but in it's true essence it is not.

[gunner154]

??? huh? ???

[quoudam72]

Gunner154 I was not talking to you, I was talking to someone else sorry about the confusion.

[nemafakei]

Re Pan's comment: No-one should be getting angry or annoyed over this (then again, no-one should be saying atheists or any others are akin to satan, Edric). We should be engaged in light-hearted debate, not violent mud-slinging.

Omniscience- no free will: I completely agree with you Mahdi, although what I was saying was not quite as explicit and lengthy on that point.

As to the possibility of future beings, I still don't think so. There is some logic, but with holes in the argument. (hence, a holy argument!)

"it may not actually be evil"

No... still assuming that God exists, by Genesis, we know what is good and what is evil.

God/time/creation of man and beast:

While God is outside time, WE are not; therefore the quoets are contradictive. But many (not all) disregard exact details like that anyway, saying that the precise chronology was not important.

And if you're not posting about religion, don't post here.

[quoudam72]

Why just to listen to you still try to disprove God does not exist? To listen to you try to judge God by mankinds laws. To continue to listen to this idle chatter of if God this, if God that and why doesn't God, I mean I could continue but why should I you get the point.

Mankind is but a speck in the universe, only lives on one planet but will claim that there is no God. Mankind swears to be a master but has yet to master himself. And to think God made man higher than the rest of the animals, he had to have seen something within mankind but how long before mankind takes that responsibilty that was bestowed apon him and uses it to the good of all mankind not just some.  

[ordos45]

Ex, I am deeply hurt.

[gunner154]

i know this post if off-topic, but what did Pan mean by PRIVATE messages were supposed to be private? what happened?

[ordos45]

Gunner154, as you can see Ex and Pan had a conversation on AIM, and then Ex copy and pasted it onto the forum.  Pan thought that what they were saying would remain between them, not be posted on the forum.

[gunner154]

but i do hope the members that got into unhappy arguments will be back with hopes of reconciliation.

"One must learn to forgive and forget."

[Acriku]

I see your pic is back Mahdi :).

And about the whole privacy intrusion thing, you people are naive if you don't think that people will let others see the chatlog, especially to prove a point. Anyway its the weekend :) wooo

[nemafakei]

"To continue to listen to this idle chatter of if God this"

Fed, you're starting to become annoying. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that if you don't like it, then don't come to this thread.

Anyway.

Yes, we are relatively ignorant, but since we know what is right and wrong (acc to Genesis), we are aware of what God has done that is evil - if only the effects. The motives are irrelevant, since God is meant to be omnipotent, and so can complete the objectives without causing evil. Which he doesn't do, therfore condones evil in his own actions and through us.

The only alternative is that religion is incorrect.

If you disagree, please logically explain your difference in opinion.

[Kantama]

Goodness..... Seems to be getting a little off-topic here. Anyway. People, how can you prove God doesn't exist? I do not believe in religion. I believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. The one who went on the cross and died for me, that I wouldn't go to Hell. I don't get what you people are saying about religion, it's just beyond my realm of thought. I've dealt with demons, and overcome them, but you people are something else entirely......

[Acriku]

Religion: 1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance

What you just said Kant means you do believe in a religion. Maybe your own. And there is evidence that God doesn't exist, and there is 'evidence' that God exists. Either way you look, you have SOME SORT of proof. So how can you prove otherwise that God does exist? You can't, either way. You can just give out facts on both sides to 'defend' your side, not to convert (excuse the pun) the feelings of the other side. Remember, the strongest weapon is your heart.