No same-sex hugs allowed

[Wolf]

(rolls eyes) Seriously? I'm not hurt, Erasmus: I'm astonished, shocked, and appalled. If I feel any emotion at all, it's embarrassment. I cringe at what is essentially the read-version of a fingernail screeching down a chalkboard. Your words don't "have a negative effect" on me, nor are you insulting me: what you are doing is offending propriety, public taste, and basic notions of human decency. You seem to think that the only way someone could respond negatively to something you say is if you "hurt them" or "offend them" or "produce a negative effect on them." This is incorrect. The mens rea requirement is satisfied simply by your meaning to say what you say, not your meaning it to be evil. What is it they say about the road to Hell?

That you (claim to) have innocent intentions is actually even more horrifying, if I think about it: it means you truly don't get it. At all. Or, you do get it, and you've realized that people let you off the hook if you pretend to be some sort of innocent simpleton when you say things like this:

My offer to all men, women, and all mankind is the same. If anyone wants to change, change is close at hand. If anyone wants to be truly happy; and in line with Natural Law, the Universe, put in motion by the Creator -- then that true happiness is just a true paradigm shift, and prayer away.

Seriously? Your "universal offer" is essentially "you have the freedom to change to my way of thinking." I don't care that you seem to think that this is gracious, Chinghiz Khan, because objectively it isn't. People have the freedom to change or not, in line with whatever they believe in, and that's fundamental to any notion of liberty--which any Creator worth worshiping would seek to protect.

I have made this offer to all those whom I volunteer for. Some of those, who have all types of life experiences and sexual experiences, have taken up that offer -- and are happy. They are happy their lives are in alignment with Natural Law and the Creator.

Yeah. I bet they are.

Wolf, you talked about me ending up as a vagrant. God, the Son in human form, did not have a place to rest his head, two thousand years ago; and was dependent on the kindness of others. If I end up that way, then I am ending up as the one that I believe to be the Creator.

Jesus, dude, are you actually incapable of understanding any form of subtlety, whatsoever? I didn't mean that you would end up as a vagrant, I suggested that you pretend to be one in Motor City, Detroit, and talk about how homosexuals are in violation of God's law and need to be saved by rejecting their sexuality. I suggested it because the majority of the U.S. population (65%) not only thinks that homosexuality is perfectly natural and acceptable, but also thinks that homosexuals should have a Constitutionally-protected right to marry. In other words, I suggested it because the probability of you getting your ass kicked was 1.

[athanasios]

Leave them ErasOmnius, it is pointless.

And I am baptized an extreme right (~fascist)? What a joke! I have been imprisoned because I am a Christian and my father was sentenced to death from the extreme right party ruling Greece after WWII. Yes the Communists were responsible for the civil war but the others surpassed them. If the same people were still ruling Greece I would still be in prison if not in the grave together with communists, homosexuals and other minorities...

Greece is the cradle of Democracy and Culture. But Democracy and Culture have been twisted to the maximum extend possible nowadays. Shouldn't I defend them? And shouldn't I be proud for the achievements of my forefathers? Not to brag though, because we have shouldered a heavy responsibility: to instill those values to those who lack them.

[Wolf]

You flung the first stone with "Communist," pal, and you didn't seem very keen on bothering to find out what our inclinations were, then, huh? The main point, however, is that regardless of what you perceive your beliefs to be, you're ultimately advocating for a position that seeks to strip numerous people of numerous groups (gays, Muslims, Arabs), of pretty fundamental civil liberties. You've got no case against me for being a communist (if even that were necessarily a bad thing), but I think I've got a pretty strong case against you for, if not "right-wing" per se, definitely regressive and unacceptable totalitarian tendencies (which are definitely bad things). Look, man, you call what you're doing "defending democracy," don't you wonder why we all disagree with you? Aren't you bothered that what you think are well-meaning comments are met with shock and disgust? The consensus on this forum has pretty much been... everyone being appalled at what you and ErasOmnius have been saying. Even Hwi has backed down from her original position.

Maybe it's the language barrier? But, hey, on the off-chance that we have misunderstood you, why not just restate your "platform?" Seriously. Tell me what you think on the following issues:

Homosexuality:

Immigration from the Middle East:

Role of Christianity in Government:

I'll sit back and let you go on at length about them. You know? To give you a second chance to get all your real feelings out in the air. Maybe I mis-read you. Maybe you didn't have the time to word your statements as well as you would have liked to in English. Well, here's your chance. Seem fair?

[chatfsh]

Even Hwi has backed down from her original position.

Wolf, do not presume to speak for me.  And for the record, you are wrong.  I agreed with Edric that homosexual sex is a sin.  It always has been, it always will be.  Just because I agreed that homosexuals should be dealt with compassionately does not mean that homosexual sex should be sanctioned in any way, shape, or form.  Thus, a homosexual who gives his life to Christ must either commit to a life of chastity or marry someone of the opposite sex.  (Call them bi-sexuals or curious, whatever, the point is that many ex-gays once claimed to be homosexuals but have now chosen to live the straight or celibate life for Christ.)

Now, a question for the Christian forum members:  Do you disagree with the passage that Caid Ivik posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding homosexuality?

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved

[Wolf]

I ain't speakin' for ya, I'm just remindin' everyone about what you've been sayin' all along:

The more that I read about Alexander, the more my admiration for the man grows. [Referring to an allegedly severe rebuke by Alexander.]

So again, we have the strict laws regarding homosexuality, the derogatory names associated with the acts, the words of Plato condemning homosexual acts and Alexander the Great flying into a rage over someone even implying that he would be interested in such a thing.

Open your eyes and see the truth.  Homosexuality existed in Ancient Greece but it was not looked upon favorably at all.  All the wishful thinking in the world isn

[SandChigger]

She just got reminded what her professed religion is supposed to be about. Doesn't look good for an American (Republican) "Christian" to be shown up by a Communist, now does it? ::)

[Acriku]

Whatever happened to the days where man's sins were between himself, his priest, and God? Anyway...

Now, a question for the Christian forum members:  Do you disagree with the passage that Caid Ivik posted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding homosexuality?

Truthfully, I think it

[MrFlibble]

Greece is the cradle of Democracy and Culture. But Democracy and Culture have been twisted to the maximum extend possible nowadays. Shouldn't I defend them? And shouldn't I be proud for the achievements of my forefathers? Not to brag though, because we have shouldered a heavy responsibility: to instill those values to those who lack them.

Leaving democracy aside, do you imply that other civilizations like those of India, Persia, Middle East, China, Japan, Americas, and numerous other traditions that were not directly related to Greece are not "cultures"? What are they, then, pray tell?

And on another note, the whole pathos of the quoted passage reminds me of something disturbingly familiar...

[chatfsh]

To you who has live with these unnatural creations, that they stop their God-given urges? God hath giveth thy man and thy woman unnatural desire and God hath taken away any righteous use of them.

God did not

[ErasOmnius]

Let's rip away some of the hypocrisy.

I am a Christian, heterosexual, married, male, who is in there late 40s.

I have declared who I am, and where my viewpoints come from.

Others should start stating the five above afiiliations in their lives.

65% of all Americans believe that homosexuality is perfectly okay? If that were the case, then why the dramatic presentation in the US Congress in late April and early May on behalf of ENDA -- which banned discrimination on sexual orientation?

We really haven't even begun to talk about this topic.

Next up, the specific acts of male homosexuals during their times of 'enjoyment', and the prelude to those acts. Shall I quote some?

My God, what do some of these phrases mean? 'Yellow hankie left jean pocket'? 'Power Bottom'?

Dune Forums! 'Pull the fence post out of your arse and take a side. Not for the weak minded.' How ultra-true. How ultra-true.

[Dragoon Knight]

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=define%3Aultra-true - Stop trying to invent words, you moron.

I am an agnostic, heterosexual, single male in his early-to-mid 20s, and nearly every view you have expressed in this thread has appalled me.

"Next up"?  No, you don't get to move on and ignore things.  You've been asked by Wolf to explain yourself.  This is your chance to do some epic backpedalling to try and extricate yourself from this hole you've dug yourself into.  Right now, you are nothing but a bigoted, homophobic, closeted racist.

If you can't be bothered to respond to challenges, or use real words and phrases, then take that same fence post and swivel on it, because you are the one who is weak minded.  The only place you get given any credit is being more forthright in your idiocy than Hwi.

[Dante]

Why couldn

[athanasios]

Answer to what? I believe I was clear enough and Hwi too. If some fail to understand, we cannot make it more simple.

Leaving democracy aside, do you imply that other civilizations like those of India, Persia, Middle East, China, Japan, Americas, and numerous other traditions that were not directly related to Greece are not "cultures"? What are they, then, pray tell?

And you mentioned a few only. They should be proud for their culture too. But have you ever though how many of those civilizations were influenced by the Greek one? Not that the Greek was not influenced by them either. But the most important-DEMOCRACY-you want to leave aside. ::)

[Dante]

You don't understand? Oh, that's a shame, and here I thought we were talking down enough already. Here, I'll repeat what was said.

You flung the first stone with "Communist," pal, and you didn't seem very keen on bothering to find out what our inclinations were, then, huh? The main point, however, is that regardless of what you perceive your beliefs to be, you're ultimately advocating for a position that seeks to strip numerous people of numerous groups (gays, Muslims, Arabs), of pretty fundamental civil liberties. You've got no case against me for being a communist (if even that were necessarily a bad thing), but I think I've got a pretty strong case against you for, if not "right-wing" per se, definitely regressive and unacceptable totalitarian tendencies (which are definitely bad things). Look, man, you call what you're doing "defending democracy," don't you wonder why we all disagree with you? Aren't you bothered that what you think are well-meaning comments are met with shock and disgust? The consensus on this forum has pretty much been... everyone being appalled at what you and ErasOmnius have been saying. Even Hwi has backed down from her original position.

Maybe it's the language barrier? But, hey, on the off-chance that we have misunderstood you, why not just restate your "platform?" Seriously. Tell me what you think on the following issues:

Homosexuality:

Immigration from the Middle East:

Role of Christianity in Government:

I'll sit back and let you go on at length about them. You know? To give you a second chance to get all your real feelings out in the air. Maybe I mis-read you. Maybe you didn't have the time to word your statements as well as you would have liked to in English. Well, here's your chance. Seem fair?

[ErasOmnius]

Now, don't try to change the subject. Dragoon and wolf have asked both ErasOmnius and athanasios some interesting questions. It remains to be seen whether they will answer them properly, or pull a Hwi and ignore them entirely.

Here it goes:

1. Homosexuality - I believe homosexuals live sad and miserable lives. Anyone who uses their body to the complete un-naturalness to which they were created, will feel that miserable. The Universe has an order to it; males and females mate, and create offspring, with seminal fluid. Our bodies use our lower colon to eliminate waste, fecal matter.

There can be no showing of the illogical going against the Natural-ness of the universe by the action of male homosexuals.

Sadly, misguided heterosexuals have tries to cast blame upon homosexuals by hurting them. Actually a great gays and lesbians many want to change, and do -- and are happy. To those who do not want to change, I say, "Think about it. At least try."

2.  Immigration from the Middle East. I live in SE Michigan, which has the highest cluster of Middle Easterners in North America. I say to them - Welcome!

3.  Christianity and Government - There is no role for a Christian to play in government. I don't vote, I don't write my representative, I don't try to influence elections. The New Covenant [New Testament] in The Book [The Bible] is clear we are not to be involved in government.

I want to say that I apologize for bringing up the handkerchief thing. I went down to the center, and saw some men who want to change, and I thought I had let them down. I felt like I trivialized their struggle with their same-gender attraction.

[Acriku]

Here it goes:

1. Homosexuality - I believe homosexuals live sad and miserable lives. Anyone who uses their body to the complete un-naturalness to which they were created, will feel that miserable. The Universe has an order to it; males and females mate, and create offspring, with seminal fluid. Our bodies use our lower colon to eliminate waste, fecal matter.

There can be no showing of the illogical going against the Natural-ness of the universe by the action of male homosexuals.

Then again, we use our mouths for breathing AND eating (which seems unnatural seeing as how we can choke). Why not have an Entry sign as well as an Exit sign on our bums? Well, that was in jest but really using words like unnatural and Universal Order tells me you are simply uncomfortable with homosexuality which is completely fine. Saying they lead sad and miserable lives is moving into ignorance, though.

For the homosexuals who wish to change, have you ever wondered why they might want to change? To fit in, to be unoffensive to their families, etc. Nothing that proves it's a move towards a more natural state. I can't imagine the psychological stresses being shunned by society or your family cause, but without them I seriously think that the desire to change their sexual orientation would die down.

As a side note, drawing out the order of the universe through a text that condones slavery and murdering children for trivial matters of insult can be hazardous to your state of mind.

[Wolf]

I can't imagine the psychological pressures, either, but I bet they're pretty bad when even the people who say they're there to "help" me say I lead a sad, miserable and unnatural existence.

[Dante]

It's painful to imagine.

Well then, since Eras appear to have made the effort I will respond in kind.

Now I'm prepared to grant you some leeway on this first point because it's entirely possible that you've only ever met miserable, self-loathing homosexuals. Believe me, there is much you do not understand. There are plenty of fulfilled, happy and normal homosexuals out there. There are some severely depressed homosexuals too. See, the funny thing about gays is that, just like heterosexuals, their lives are not defined by the people to whom they are attracted. Unless they choose it to be so.

Those who attempt to change who they are may indeed find happy lives. Deluded lives, but no less happy for that.

The last time I used myself as an example I lived to regret it, but... take me as an example. I feel a little guilty for not writing to my grandmother more often. I'm pleased that I have a good book waiting for me when I go to bed. I am reluctantly admitting that it's probably time to throw out some old clothes. I am excited to be starting a new job soon. I am content to be who I am, all parts of me. I am not miserable, and on those occasions when I have been it has never been because I'm gay. Indeed, that part of me has often been a source of strength. It's something that has never changed and never will. From personal experience then, I refute your belief, and challenge you to prove otherwise.

On to the next point.

If we were meant to follow our bodies entirely then men (and women) wouldn't shave, we would use body odour instead of covering it up, and artificial limbs would be blasphemy. We are greater than our fleshy shells, Eras, I'm sure you believe that. We have minds, we have intellect to see our place in the world and change it. There is no such thing as "natural law" in the sense of "the way things are meant to be" and even if there were, we surpassed it long ago. We made organisms to produce insulin for diabetics, we repurposed creatures as weapons. Our own bodies are no less subject to our will than anything else, and if people choose to use their bodies in unfamiliar ways then there is no law to stop them. Personally I find tattoos distasteful, but that's a personal opinion that isn't even close to forming a prejudice against tattooed people.

And finally, you really don't need to apologise for bringing the handkerchief thing up. Especially since the apology was just as offensive as the original question. If you wanted to apologise to these people, you should apologise for participating in their societal flagellation. By making out that there should be a struggle against who they are, you are trivialising those people. You are making them objects upon which to graft your notions of propriety. You, and all who act as you, claim love and compassion, think to apologise for imagined slights while ignoring the implicit condemnation that drips from every word. You don't even see what you should be apologising for.

And finally, congratulations on responding to Wolf's points, but you failed to answer my own. Thoughts?

[chatfsh]

My, how times have changed. I wonder what could have precipitated such a switch.

Obviously, my spiritual beliefs have changed for the better, or to be more accurate, they have returned to the beliefs that I held dear in my youth.  As far as what precipitated the return, about a year ago this time, my family experienced a rather life altering event concerning my little son.  As you can imagine, such an event forces one to re-evaluate one

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

Christianity has no single set of moral codes, their common denominator is Jesus, and there are different takes on him, and different emphasis on different teachings.  Different branches have different takes on Jesus and his morals, and you yourself reject the most ancient and continuous one (Catholicism) for one branch or another of a brand that was created less than a millennium ago.  You say God's laws are universal, but you pick and choose what are actually God's laws.  Look at the Ten Commandments and you will see that homosexual sex, drunkenness, and pride are not there.  And yet I can safely say that you've never kept Shabbat, which is.  I will not tell you that you can't have it both ways, but certainly don't expect anyone to put any stock into what you say.

[chatfsh]

Christians are no longer under the Old Law Covenant as that covenant was fulfilled through Jesus

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

I already addressed those claims here: http://forum.dune2k.com/index.php?topic=22238.msg356226#msg356226

Feel free to respond here, or even in a new thread if that would be more appropriate.

Eliyyahu

[Acriku]

How convenient. So let me get this straight, God sent himself as Jesus to fulfill the obligation he gave to the Jews and allow Christians to ignore his old rules and set up some new rules. Huzzah! And the rabbit comes out of the hat.

The word plerosai is the main word of this argument, as it is used that I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. By them he means the Law and Prophets. He did this by fulfilling the prophecies found in the Torah that were required of the messiah. None of this makes the logical jump you perform to get to where you are not bound by the laws found in the Torah.

I've been reading around and it seems Paul himself spoke highly in favor of keeping to the commandments and the Law.

1 Corinthians 7:19 (New American Standard Bible)

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Romans 7:12 (New American Standard Bible)

So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

[Wolf]

Wait, what? This doesn

[chatfsh]

Pardon me, Wolf, but when you said that you were a Christian I thought that meant that you were already familiar with the Scriptures.  Homosexual sex is condemned in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.  So I