No same-sex hugs allowed

[Eliyyahu]

Films are just that.  You can't take them too seriously.

Have you ever seen David portrayed as a thirty year old man against Goliath?

Or Isaac as a nearly forty year old man when Abraham bound him?

They are constantly portrayed as children or young teens, which is not consistent with the source of the stories.

That is just what film does.

Look at Lynch's take on Dune.

Regardless of what Alexander did or did not do behind closed doors, he was just as highly regarded by the conservative Jews of Jerusalem as he was by less conservative areas of his empire.  I can't recall coming across any non-Greek source from ancient times which portray him as a sissy.

[Edric O]

First, the top homosexual guy in Greece pissed me off, and the rest 99,99% of the population, with what he said in a TV program in support of the Muslim minority's 'rights' in Greece

Oh, wonderful, so you're not only a bigot who hates people because of their sexuality - you also hate people because of their religion. Quick, say something about black people too. And, for that matter, what exactly do you think about Jews?

yes those people who are suppressed and mistreated by the Greek government, but are free to beat their wives...

Let's look at this quote above a little more carefully, shall we? Leaving aside the obvious bigotry and thinly disguised racism, I want to draw your attention to something else, dear forum reader: when someone says "Muslim people", Athanasios apparently understands "Muslim men". Presumably, Muslim women don't count as "Muslim people", because they're not real people, just objects that one can either protect or mistreat. Notice also that Athanasios sees no logical contradiction in saying that Muslims should have no rights because "they beat their women" - as if the possibility that Muslim women might have rights never even crossed his mind. To Athanasios, the question of rights for the Muslim minority is a question of rights for Muslim men. The idea that Muslim women are also affected by the government's policy towards Muslims in general did not even occur to him.

That's probably because he is also sexist, on top of being a homophobe and Islamophobe. But then, we should hardly be surprised. These sorts of things tend to go together.

So the way he is presented in the well known film doesn't imply it? ::)

Yep. Definitely looks like a sissy to me. Real men fight in their underwear and drink testosterone for breakfast.

[SandChigger]

BRAVO, and thank you, Edric, for the first truly Christian post in the thread for several pages!

[chatfsh]

Emphatically warning people to turn away from a path that is leading them to the eternal flames of hell IS the loving Christian thing to do.  Make no mistake about it, God

[Edric O]

Emphatically warning people to turn away from a path that is leading them to the eternal flames of hell IS the loving Christian thing to do.  Make no mistake about it, God

[Edric O]

Also, Hwi, I believe the general consensus regarding those "ex-gay" people is that they were (and are) bisexual without knowing it.

Let me put it this way: could you ever force yourself through an effort of will to feel sexually attracted to women? No? Then you know exactly how homosexual men feel.

[SandChigger]

God's Word

Well, we'll continue to differ on that point. I'll believe in your god and that the much redacted texts are his "Word" when he appears before me and says so. Until then, they're human-conceived and human-written.

And I wasn't being sarcastic above. You seem to embody the "qualities associated with Christians, esp. those of decency, kindness, and fairness" far more than any others here who claim the name.

[Eliyyahu]

Emphatically warning people to turn away from a path that is leading them to the eternal flames of hell IS the loving Christian thing to do.  Make no mistake about it, God

[chatfsh]

Edric, I am pleased that you decided to weigh in on this topic. Essentially, I agree with you that what God condemns is homosexual intercourse. The fact that homosexual feelings and the sex act so often go hand in hand makes it difficult to separate the two things. However, you are correct in that it's homosexual sex that stands condemned. Therefore, homosexuals are called to chastity in their service to God.

If my style of delivery has struck some as arrogant or prideful, I do apologize for that.

An ex-gay refers to someone who has abandoned the gay lifestyle in favor of either chastity or heterosexuality with the latter group consisting of bisexuals.

[MrFlibble]

I, too, want to thank Edric for expressing his opinion on the matter. It also struck me that no one before Edric paid real attention to the Catechism quote posted by Caid Ivik above, which essentially calls people to tolerance and compassion. Instead, some still prefer to state hateful, prejudiced opinions that are insulting and unjust :(

I'd also like to thank Wolf for an insightful post with interesting points on the matter of political correctness :)

[ErasOmnius]

Because with sexual expression that is against Natural Law, the onset of Veneral Diseases swings upwards.

Back to Malawi, where this 'couple' is from. Malawi has one of the highest HIV/AIDS rates in the world. And what began in Malawi as a homosexual-oriented disease in the 1980s, has spread because of the bi-sexuality into the general population to women, and then to their children.

These are real issues that come with un-natural sexual expressions.

http://knowledge.allianz.com/en/globalissues/demographic_change/population_growth/aids_southern_africa.html

And the women and children of Malawi don't have access to AIDS inhibitors like homosexual and bi-sexual men do in the West. So they are dying. That's sad, and a tragedy.

But let the drum-and-song routine begin.

Some are surely going to say that HIV/AIDS is not traceable in its' origins to un-natural sexual expressions--and on this forum they will be applauded.

But Homosexual and bi-sexual expressive [out of the closet] men come into the homeless and free-health clinics all the time. It's sad to see them suffering with HIV and AIDS. They deserve our prayers, our care, and our time. They deserve the right to hear about Natural Law, and the Good News of Christianity.

There are real consequences to the philosophy of non-restrained sexual behavior. Africa is experiencing it now. If it weren't for AIDS inibitors, we would be experiencing the same problems on a much larger scale, as they do in Afric

[MrFlibble]

Because with sexual expression that is against Natural Law, the onset of Veneral Diseases swings upwards.

Sure, STDs are only contracted through homosexual intercourse ::) And once again, you invoke this discriminating, let alone vaguely defined concept of "natural law". I'm sorry to bring this up, but this "natural law" argument is also quite popular among some racists, you know.

[Tatar Khan]

Because with sexual expression that is against Natural Law, the onset of Veneral Diseases swings upwards.

What is natural law?

Some are surely going to say that HIV/AIDS is not traceable in its' origins to un-natural sexual expressions--and on this forum they will be applauded.

Of course it is traceable just look at the natural facts Cats have their version of AIDS (Feline immunodeficiency virus) because they keep on having unnatural sex.

But Homosexual and bi-sexual expressive [out of the closet] men come into the homeless and free-health clinics all the time. It's sad to see them suffering with HIV and AIDS. They deserve our prayers, our care, and our time. They deserve the right to hear about Natural Law, and the Good News of Christianity.

Yeah I am really against any kind of recruitment of people when they are emotionally down and so their logical thinking is not at their best.

[Acriku]

I only refer to religion being the main influence in the world's general approach to homosexuality because that's the only justification a man can use. Your creator told you so, and that's enough. But when you take that out of the equation, there's simply no justification for putting anti-homosexuality into law or custom. No valid justification, anyway. Bigotry doesn't need any justification all by itself.

Some say it's against natural law, against the natural order of things. Where does this come from? A philosophical point-of-view? A scientific hypothesis? Who defines what is natural, or is it simply what is most common? What feels right? I ask you now, how can a heterosexual human being tell a homosexual human being what is natural? The arrogance is astounding.

[athanasios]

...

I give up! Sorry but your post hits paranoia...

Just this: Go and stay for a month in a Muslim village (or ghetto) and if you come back alive we can talk again.

-

You can threaten people with hell (which is nowhere to be found in the "Old Testament")

It is neither found in the "New Testament". In KJV maybe.

[Edric O]

I give up! Sorry but your post hits paranoia...

Just this: Go and stay for a month in a Muslim village (or ghetto) and if you come back alive we can talk again.

So you seem to think that Muslims should be punished because some Muslims are doing bad things to other Muslims. Please, please tell me you see the problem with that line of thinking.

[ErasOmnius]

These cultures that we call societies exist by barely shoestrings and points of view. There is only one correct way that societies can move forward and carry on for the next generation.

As someone who is married to a woman with an Urban Planning degree, I hear about the problems facing Western societies on a daily and weekly basis.

The Birth Dearth is a great book to read by Ben Wattenberg.

They basically all come down to this: There are not enough young, disciplined, productive people; to balance out the growing graying population that we have. Heterosexual people are not marrying young enough, and staying married, and are not having generational reproducing numbers by having enough children.

Instead we have a culture of sex for not having children. Sex between homosexuals -- which do not produce any children. Sex between non-married  heterosexuals, which end up in abortion and single-parent families.

What we have now is almost laughable as a culture--it will not continue. It is unsustainable, and will be replaced.

People in this forum have quoted data talking about birth rates -- and projections are true for data of today. But these trends are getting worse and worse -- just like every society of the past that believed in free sex and homosexuality -- it is replaced by a society that is does not believe in free sex and homosexuality. The birthrate is still declining in the USA and Western Europe.

Then there's HIV. The killer. The eliminator of millions of people. It has no cure.

In monogamous relationships, there is no HIV.

[Dragoon Knight]

In monogamous relationships, there is no HIV.

I'm sorry, but what?  No.  Just... just no.  Straw, camel, spinal injury.

What you mean to say is more discriminatory nonsense; that "no-one in their right mind would have a monogamous relationship with someone who has HIV".  Or "only those who cheat on their partners get HIV".  Or perhaps you believe that those with HIV do nothing but sleep around and "spread disease"?  Honestly.

Your views are antiquated.  There are no "cured gay people".  Homosexuality isn't something you recover from, any more than you recover from being straight.  Perhaps you can have your eyes opened to other possibilities (i.e. bisexuality, or maybe pressured into repressing and "renouncing" it (i.e. back into the closet with you).  Anyone who professes to be "cured", in my opinion, was never gay in the first place; simply curious.

Next, you go on about aging populations.  Never mind that we're marching towards a ridiculous level of global overpopulation.  Forget all about... you know what?  Forget all about this line of argument, you're not going to listen, anyway.

Regardless, you're an idiot, and I'm not pulling any punches here.  I refuse to even acknowledge your viewpoints any more.  From reading everything you've posted in this thread, it's clear that you're the worst type of homophobic, racist bigot: one of those who thinks he's doing what's in everyone's best interests.

That you can so casually travel from same-gender sex (which you still can't seem to differentiate from homosexual attraction) to HIV... I bet you blame gay people for that, don't you?  I wonder which of the dunces in this thread will be the first to say "Actually..." and link me some figures to try and prove just that point.  Perhaps our resident expert on Ancient Greece will share her enlightened viewpoHAHAHA, sorry.  I just laughed and puked in my mouth a little at the same time.

ErasOmnius, you disgust me.

[Wolf]

Shortfalls in social welfare payments is hardly a "doomsday" scenario--and furthermore, after the "baby boomer" generation dies out, the proportion of young to old in the United States will actually increase again in about 20-30 years. As for European countries, there are slight sine-wave-style fluctuations in age demographics that occur naturally, and are normal.

However, decreased food supply due to climate change and other factors make large birth rates--i.e. overpopulation--actually unsustainable. Even with China's total fertility rate (TFR) near 1 (half of replacement rate), their large population is actually a tremendous liability that could result in widespread strife and possible social collapse in the event of sweeping climate change or inconsistent global food production. In light of these facts, India's relatively high TFR puts it in an even worse position, and the countries with the highest TFRs--Africa and the Middle East--will experience a "baby boom" problem of their own in 30 years on a scale fully ten times that of the United States. This is not to mention the possibility that much of Africa and the Middle East, geographically, could be rendered uninhabitable or at least agriculturally unproductive by global warming trends by as early as the 22nd century. That's a doomsday scenario. And... wow! A doomsday theory that has nothing to do with how evil homosexuals are! Think about it: the proportion of homosexuals in the human population is determined through genetics--it doesn't change, or at the very least, it hasn't changed for hundreds of thousands of years. There is the same proportion of homosexuals now as there was a thousand years ago, in every country in the world, just as there is roughly the same proportion of males to females (which is actually subject to greater scrutiny and "change" by national governments: sex-selection in some countries is actually responsible for the infanticide of thousands). So... guess what? Homosexuals weren't going to be breeding, anyway. And things are never going to get so bad that you're going to have to force them to breed! The only people stupid or bigoted enough to say otherwise are folks like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Or, apparently, you.

And, since you like to flout your wife's qualifications (note, not you own) about so much, quick question: how can anyone with an urban planning degree tolerate being married to someone who thinks that homosexuality destroys nations? Do you know anything about cities in the United States?

[athanasios]

Bravo brother ErasOmnius. Your post was right to the point.

I will add to your fine post that it is not only the survival of humanity that is at stake but also that of our civilized Greek (and in extension Western) culture. And the latter is going to become extinct imminently if there is no intervention (human or from above).

Only the narrow sighted Communists aren't concerned about it. They think that this is their opportunity to grab the power (see another post of mine today for similar thoughts). So, even though I am pissed off,  I am not surprised with some of the posts in this thread. We know them well, and especially here in Greece, where we have suffered a civil war due to their stupidity (not that the nationalists were innocent either), and we are still trying to deal with the consequences of their treason.

Besides it is very nice to accuse people who are concerned about the threat Muslim religion poses to our society. It doesn't matter if you thus insult a big proportion of the population of a civilized country

http://www.redcounty.com/geert-wilders-freedom-party-picks-24-seats-dutch-elections/40881

and in extension of EU.

http://www.english.rfi.fr/europe/20100610-two-nights-riots-stockholm-suburb

[ErasOmnius]

Shortfalls in social welfare payments is hardly a "doomsday" scenario

Tell that to the striking people of Athens. There is quite a ruckus over the tiniest of cuts.

--and furthermore, after the "baby boomer" generation dies out, the proportion of young to old in the United States will actually increase again in about 20-30 years. As for European countries, there are slight sine-wave-style fluctuations in age demographics that occur naturally, and are normal.

This would be true except the Birth Rate continues to plummet downward, and what is the bottom?

However, decreased food supply due to climate change and other factors make large birth rates--i.e. overpopulation--actually unsustainable. Even with China's total fertility rate (TFR) near 1 (half of replacement rate), their large population is actually a tremendous liability that could result in widespread strife and possible social collapse in the event of sweeping climate change or inconsistent global food production. In light of these facts, India's relatively high TFR puts it in an even worse position, and the countries with the highest TFRs--Africa and the Middle East--will experience a "baby boom" problem of their own in 30 years on a scale fully ten times that of the United States.

This is not to mention the possibility that much of Africa and the Middle East, geographically, could be rendered uninhabitable or at least agriculturally unproductive by global warming trends by as early as the 22nd century. That's a doomsday scenario.

If the West would let them keep some of the profits of their natural resources, instead of giving the loot to the local dictator, then they might get out of the cycle of poverty. This also goes to the fact that a great deal of the people's efforts go to deBeers, Shell Oil, etc.

And... wow! A doomsday theory that has nothing to do with how evil homosexuals are! Think about it: the proportion of homosexuals in the human population is determined through genetics--it doesn't change, or at the very least, it hasn't changed for hundreds of thousands of years.

Evolutionary Thought -- a theory. Actually homosexuality exists on a scale to which it is tolerated in the previous generation in a society.

There is the same proportion of homosexuals now as there was a thousand years ago, in every country in the world, just as there is roughly the same proportion of males to females (which is actually subject to greater scrutiny and "change" by national governments: sex-selection in some countries is actually responsible for the infanticide of thousands).

It is a joke to believe that there is just as high of a percentage of homosexuals 'born' in Pakistan, for example, as there are 'born' in the Netherlands. There so many homosexuals in Holland because they are so tolerant of the practice, and its' supporting culprits [porn, sex clubs, etc.]

So... guess what? Homosexuals weren't going to be breeding, anyway. And things are never going to get so bad that you're going to have to force them to breed! The only people stupid or bigoted enough to say otherwise are folks like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Or, apparently, you.

Considering that I believe God put the Jews in present-day Israel, I would hardly say that I qualify to be compared to the leader of Iran.

And, since you like to flout your wife's qualifications (note, not your own) about so much, quick question:

I have a degree in Marketing.

how can anyone with an urban planning degree tolerate being married to someone who thinks that homosexuality destroys nations?

How can you be so mad at me, when almost everyone who has met me, says that I am one of the kindest people they have ever met?

Do you know anything about cities in the United States?

A great about many of them, but especially the Motor City, Detroit. A real challenge for any person. A city with a lot of needs.

[Wolf]

Ah, the "Freedom Party." We could have had one ourselves.

Athanasios: are you joking? Are you merely a troll ordered to inflame and falsely discredit Western liberal progressivism? Are you employed by a right-wing Greek political party and do you not care one whit for any larger social issue facing us? I doubt it: I doubt Greeks are reading Fed2k in droves. That means that you are just doing this out of... particularly nefarious, personal inclinations.

You seem to be (based on an analysis of your posts) a Hellenic supremacist,

I will add to your fine post that it is not only the survival of humanity that is at stake but also that of our civilized Greek (and in extension Western) culture. And the latter is going to become extinct imminently if there is no intervention (human or from above).

... with theocratic leanings, who also seems to label everyone at this forum who disagrees with you a "Communist," to use your words,

Only the narrow sighted Communists aren't concerned about it. They think that this is their opportunity to grab the power (see another post of mine today for similar thoughts). So, even though I am pissed off,  I am not surprised with some of the posts in this thread.

... and you seem particularly intolerant of people based on their sexual orientation (gays), ethnicity (Arabs), or religion (Muslims). Tell me, how are you not objectively the most immoral person ever to grace the code of this forum?

Only Edric is an actual "communist," and I break gentlemanly code by speaking for him. I am a capitalist, a Christian, and a libertarian, and I oppose you, and Hwi, and virtually every critic of homosexuality in this thread because you commit acts that are, at their core, fundamentally fascist. Either you live and let others to live as they choose, or you do not. We protect the right of homosexuals to live, to love, and to speak because any other rule would fail to protect all of us. That is the core of true libertarianism: "do as you wish, so long as you preserve the right of others to do as they wish." The only threat to that maxim... well, stares you in the mirror.

[Wolf]

EDIT 2: Sorry about double-posting. The first was to Athanasios, this is for ErasOmnius. It's been a busy night.

Tell that to the striking people of Athens. There is quite a ruckus over the tiniest of cuts.

The cuts are not by any objective measure "tiny." Greece is suffering problems because of its association with the EU, primarily, and because of its poor business practices, secondarily. Misrepresentation.

This would be true except the Birth Rate continues to plummet downward, and what is the bottom?

My point is a logical truth, you idiot. If the current Old Generation is the baby boomers, and the current Young Generation are numerically fewer than them, then the future Old Generation will be a numerically small group, which will cause economic pressure to incentivize them to have many children, creating a larger future Young Generation. Again, you fail to grasp the basics of Cartesian logic.

If the West would let them keep some of the profits of their natural resources, instead of giving the loot to the local dictator, then they might get out of the cycle of poverty. This also goes to the fact that a great deal of the people's efforts go to deBeers, Shell Oil, etc.

Corporatist paranoia is a amusing from you. Who is "them?" Do you truly think corporations (who are subjected to fewer restrictions on curtailments of civil rights in the United States) are a better protector of rights than the U.S. Federal Government

Evolutionary Thought -- a theory. Actually homosexuality exists on a scale to which it is tolerated in the previous generation in a society.

Dismissing my point because you term evolution a theory removes you from the pool of credible critics. Actually, homosexuality, universally, has been documented to exist at around 10% of the human population, regardless of social pressure or norms, which change radically within even the 10-year range. Read about a Greater Man Than You. Do you have evidence to dispute this? Post it or delete your account, hypocrite. *EDIT: Did you know that asexuals are pretty consistently 1% of the adult population? Do you hate them, too, for the high crime of not-breeding?

It is a joke to believe that there is just as high of a percentage of homosexuals 'born' in Pakistan, for example, as there are 'born' in the Netherlands. There so many homosexuals in Holland because they are so tolerant of the practice, and its' supporting culprits [porn, sex clubs, etc.]

The percentage born is the same. The percentage that admits it is different because of violent intolerance to homosexuality. Since you support violent intolerance of homosexuality, if your beliefs were the norm (they're not), then the percentages would be equal. Good idea, Nazi.

Considering that I believe God put the Jews in present-day Israel, I would hardly say that I qualify to be compared to the leader of Iran.

Really? I believe the WW2 allies put the Jews in present-day Israel. But that's because I read books. But regardless if you believe the presence of Jews in Israel to be the result of God or not, that has nothing to do with a comparison to the leader of Iran. At least not logically. Care to clarify?

I have a degree in Marketing.

You clearly were at the bottom of the class. You have sold your view to 0 people on this forum who did not already agree with you. You have caused at least 3 people to think about the many ways in which they do not agree with you. What a waste of tuition.

How can you be so mad at me, when almost everyone who has met me, says that I am one of the kindest people they have ever met?

How can I not, when your words are pure venom, designed to do nothing more than inflame the worst passions of the human psyche against the best that they may aspire to, in order to deny, defame, deconstruct, or destroy our brothers, our fellow man?

A great about many of them, but especially the Motor City, Detroit. A real challenge for any person. A city with a lot of needs.

Pretend to be a vagrant on a street corner. Speak to others about what you believe. I take no responsibility for anything that may happen to you.

[MrFlibble]

I oppose you, and Hwi, and virtually every critic of homosexuality in this thread because you commit acts that are, at their core, fundamentally fascist. Either you live and let others to live as they choose, or you do not. We protect the right of homosexuals to live, to love, and to speak because any other rule would fail to protect all of us. That is the core of true libertarianism: "do as you wish, so long as you preserve the right of others to do as they wish." The only threat to that maxim... well, stares you in the mirror.

Straight to the point, Wolf, and well spoken. Thank you. I was going to post something along those lines myself, but you put it better than I could.

[ErasOmnius]

Wolf, first of all, I want to say that I did not mean to hurt you in any way. I am sad that my words have had such a negative-oriented effect on you.

I have not, in any way, tried to defame or hurt anyone. I have never advocated that any government body pass any law or decree stripping anyone of any rights in any way. Changing the law does not change what is the most important, changing people's life paradigms.

My offer to all men, women, and all mankind is the same. If anyone wants to change, change is close at hand. If anyone wants to be truly happy; and in line with Natural Law, the Universe, put in motion by the Creator -- then that true happiness is just a true paradigm shift, and prayer away.

I have made this offer to all those whom I volunteer for. Some of those, who have all types of life experiences and sexual experiences, have taken up that offer -- and are happy. They are happy their lives are in alignment with Natural Law and the Creator.

Wolf, you talked about me ending up as a vagrant. God, the Son in human form, did not have a place to rest his head, two thousand years ago; and was dependent on the kindness of others. If I end up that way, then I am ending up as the one that I believe to be the Creator.