South Ossetia

[Tatar Khan]

Now, back on the topic of South Ossetia, of course the Russian government is being hypocritical. South Ossetia is to Georgia what Chechnya was to Russia. So either Russia is right about South Ossetia but was wrong about Chechnya, or it's wrong on South Ossetia but was right on Chechnya. They can't have it both ways, they couldn't possibly be right in both cases. But their opponents can't have it both ways either - Russia couldn't possibly be wrong on South Ossetia AND wrong on Chechnya. They must have done the right thing in at least one of those situations.

Here how it works out. Chechnya was not only Russian territory for a long time but its separatist movement was not a popular movement but was more islamic based. Since the religion during Soviet Union was not a very big thing most people were not crazy about it. However, the popularity of islamic movement for separate Chechnya started to grow only as the war became prolonged and devastating. So in Chechnya Russia was in reality fighting small band of rebels that did not represent the major population's feelings.

Now we go to South Ossetia. There there was a major population movement for independence and later referendum established that. However due to fighting between the two groups Russia moved in its forces as peacekeepers to stop fighting between the two groups. The mandate was approved by Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe. The mandate also allowed Russia to use stronger military force to reestablish ceasefire if so needed. As Georgia (like many former Soviet Union Repulbics) got a hype to blame its problems on Russia for all that happened, Russia started to become more and more pro-South Ossetia. Naturally if you stop being nice to the person why they should stay nice to you. South Ossetia will not get independence because than the North Ossetia will join it and that is not what Russia wants.

Situation is like with the Kurds. Iran has a province of Kurdistan and always supported the Kurds in Iraq to fight for their independence however the support was not enough to make them achieve it or otherwise the Kurds in Iran would than join the new Kurdish nation.

The result would be the same as with Taiwan. The country would exist in nominal terms.

[exatreide]

More photo's Pro Russian Propaganda but manage to show the horror's of modern war.

GRAPHIC

http://milkavkaz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12634

[Caid Ivik]

Wasn't it forbidden to photograph the fallen?

As for Saakashvili, I already knew he was a right-wing authoritarian bastard with delusions of grandeur, but now it turns out he's an idiot too. What the hell was he thinking, attacking South Ossetia and deliberately provoking Russia like that? What did he expect NATO to do, go to war on his behalf?

It seems so  ;D  ah, no fun, we're part of NATO as well...thank God we have a pro-Russian government right now.

[Tatar Khan]

More photo's Pro Russian Propaganda but manage to show the horror's of modern war.

GRAPHIC

http://milkavkaz.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=12634

War was always horrible. The sad part about it that there was no such problems when the Soviet Union was there, there was no ethnical fighting.

CNN censors the news

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtdVS8646GI

[Andrew]

Fox news also cut off people they were interviewing (whom were in Ossetia when the attack started) when they said that Georgia was responsible for the bombing. Fox news obviously did not like this because the Russians are the enemy, not Georgia.

Rice: NATO Won't Let Russia Succeed in Georgia. Rice says NATO will defeat Russian aims in Georgia, not allow new Cold War split

Rice: Russia will pay a price

Oh right, the US can invade and occupy 2 countries no where near US soil, yet when Russia steps in on a neighbouring country that is unstable they are somehow the bad guys which could reignite another cold war. And the US setting up missile defence systems in eastern Europe is also not a bad thing...

I mean how come Russian troops are still in Georgia? They should be removed immediately! How about the Russian troops can leave as soon as American troops leave Iraq? Oh wait USA is setting up permanent military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, just like they have in Japan/Germany/South Korea etc. Funny how successful the government and media are able to spin things their way, the people have no power at all.

[Anathema]

Invading Afghanistan was fully justified (heck, even the French thought so)

The invasion of Iraq shouldn't have happened, true.

As for the missile system, Poland and the Czech republic are sovereign nations and I applaud that the USA is helping them stand up against a country that has oppressed them for over four decades, and is trying to extend its influence again.

The Georgian and Russian governments are both at fault now, but the Russian government should get the greater blame by engineering the pre-conflict situation in the first place. Previous government of Georgia have been willing to concede great autonomy for both Abchazia and south Ossetia but Russia has always encouraged the rebels in maintaining the statsu quo.

[Tatar Khan]

I mean how come Russian troops are still in Georgia?

I know that people are complaining about Russian troops but lets face it logistically it is not easy to move an army. So if people expect them to pack in one minute they are being stupid. (compare how long do regular people pack for their vacation).

They should be removed immediately! How about the Russian troops can leave as soon as American troops leave Iraq? Oh wait USA is setting up permanent military bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, just like they have in Japan/Germany/South Korea etc. Funny how successful the government and media are able to spin things their way, the people have no power at all.

It is not funny it is beautiful however the West is far away from the propaganda successes of the USSR and China and so far refusing to learn. The cut off were completely obvious, very bad job and shows that Rice can not think on her feet as well.

Invading Afghanistan was fully justified (heck, even the French thought so)

Of Course it is we have a UN security council requesting the formation of IDF (International Defence Force)

The invasion of Iraq shouldn't have happened, true.

True, it was wrongly done but even that had been legal thanks to a large number of UN security Council passing resolutions through the period of 1990-2001. US used those resolutions to make it all legal.

As for the missile system, Poland and the Czech republic are sovereign nations and I applaud that the USA is helping them stand up against a country that has oppressed them for over four decades, and is trying to extend its influence again.

Of course the countries have the right to place those systems but that doesn't mean that Russia has no right to target those systems in order to counter act the extensions of USA influence.

The Georgian and Russian governments are both at fault now, but the Russian government should get the greater blame by engineering the pre-conflict situation in the first place. Previous government of Georgia have been willing to concede great autonomy for both Abchazia and south Ossetia but Russia has always encouraged the rebels in maintaining the statsu quo.

There is never a good side and never a bad side just who you support politically. Georgia has turned its back on Russia after the new president that was educated in the West (and so anti-Russian) and with his western born wife decided to use the nationalists and patriotic spirits to propel him to power. The west has every right and interest to support Georgia because Georgia is a perfect base for missiles (that could be deemed to be put to protect Georgia from Russian aggression) that could strike at Moscow in 10-15 minutes, faster than anything Russia can fire back.

Russia has every right and interest to protect its interest and try to make sure that Georgia doesn't become a base for missiles.

You are right the previous president was more pro-Russian than the current one (he also did not eat his ties) but he was removed in the "Rose Revolution". But the governments of Ossetia and Abhasia are not angels either.

[Anathema]

I'd like to apologize for my earlier, rather rude remark against the Russians in my opening post. Sorry if I offended any Russian people who've read it.

There is never a good side and never a bad side just who you support politically. Georgia has turned its back on Russia after the new president that was educated in the West (and so anti-Russian) and with his western born wife decided to use the nationalists and patriotic spirits to propel him to power. The west has every right and interest to support Georgia because Georgia is a perfect base for missiles (that could be deemed to be put to protect Georgia from Russian aggression) that could strike at Moscow in 10-15 minutes, faster than anything Russia can fire back.

Russia has every right and interest to protect its interest and try to make sure that Georgia doesn't become a base for missiles.

You are right the previous president was more pro-Russian than the current one (he also did not eat his ties) but he was removed in the "Rose Revolution". But the governments of Ossetia and Abhasia are not angels either.

I don't think that the USA would want to start a real Cold War II, or appear to start one. Even if they did it would be stupid to start placing missiles in Georgia. Chances it would turn into a repeat of the Cuban missile crisis with the roles reversed.

Earlier I said that Georgia should try to join NATO as soon as possible, but on second thought I'm not sure if that's the wisest thing for either NATO or Georgia. I think it might be an acceptable compromise for all parties if Georgia got a status akin to Finland or Austria during the cold war; not nominally part of either sphere of influence and mostly free in its domestic policies.

[Tatar Khan]

I don't think that the USA would want to start a real Cold War II, or appear to start one. Even if they did it would be stupid to start placing missiles in Georgia. Chances it would turn into a repeat of the Cuban missile crisis with the roles reversed.

The problem is that it is will not be same situation. USA was able to blockade Cuba. Russia can not blockade Georgia the land routes through Turkey is always opened. USA will not start the new Cold war but will continue to try to balance the world and prevent rise of other super powers and regional powers. To prevent Russia from becoming a real threat missiles in Georgia would do just fine. Plus it would be a future bargaining chip if needed.

Earlier I said that Georgia should try to join NATO as soon as possible, but on second thought I'm not sure if that's the wisest thing for either NATO or Georgia. I think it might be an acceptable compromise for all parties if Georgia got a status akin to Finland or Austria during the cold war; not nominally part of either sphere of influence and mostly free in its domestic policies.

No Georgia being part of NATO would be bad as NATO troops can't really move in fast enough into Georgia to protect it and risking a confrontation and getting Russia more on the edge is not a good policy. By providing security to Georgia through missiles would be good. In addition the problems of Ossetia and Abhasia will remain and since neither side are stopping from taking shots at each other (literally) one doesn't want to get WWIII started just because some Georgian sniper's actions will cause Russia to role in again to reinforce the cease-fire.

[MrFlibble]

the Russian government should get the greater blame by engineering the pre-conflict situation in the first place.

You are probably referring to the fact that the Soviet government decided to keep the status quo of divided North and South Ossetias, instead of uniting them into a single national state within Soviet Union?

Or are you talking about the Russian peacekeeper forces that were stationed in South Ossetia since 1992?

A couple of days ago, I've seen an interview with a Georgian official about the conflict on EuroNews. She said that the shelling of Tskhinvali on the 8th of August was a counterattack that was aimed at military targets stationed in residential areas. Don't you believe this bullshit. The attackers targeted civilian buildings, the hospital, the House of Parliament etc. She also somehow failed to mention that the counterattack measures included deliberate flooding of basements of civilian buildings in order to force the civilians who were hiding there from the bombing to come out, and be subsequently eliminated. She didn't mention that Georgian tanks fired at citizens who were trying to escape in cars, and about any other acts which can be only classified as genocide and ethnic cleansing. Of course, everything is served as measures against "rebels" >:(

[exatreide]

You are probably referring to the fact that the Soviet government decided to keep the status quo of divided North and South Ossetias, instead of uniting them into a single national state within Soviet Union?

Or are you talking about the Russian peacekeeper forces that were stationed in South Ossetia since 1992?

A couple of days ago, I've seen an interview with a Georgian official about the conflict on EuroNews. She said that the shelling of Tskhinvali on the 8th of August was a counterattack that was aimed at military targets stationed in residential areas. Don't you believe this bullshit. The attackers targeted civilian buildings, the hospital, the House of Parliament etc. She also somehow failed to mention that the counterattack measures included deliberate flooding of basements of civilian buildings in order to force the civilians who were hiding there from the bombing to come out, and be subsequently eliminated. She didn't mention that Georgian tanks fired at citizens who were trying to escape in cars, and about any other acts which can be only classified as genocide and ethnic cleansing. Of course, everything is served as measures against "rebels" >:(

...yea right.

Russian Propaganda.

[Anathema]

You are probably referring to the fact that the Soviet government decided to keep the status quo of divided North and South Ossetias, instead of uniting them into a single national state within Soviet Union?

That would have been preferable to the current mess, but I was referring to post-1991 Russian actions: granting people in foreign lands citizenship to gain leverage there and backing seperatist sentiments instead of working towards actual solutions under the guise of being mediators.

Do you also think that I shouldn't believe that thousends of Georgians have been robbed of their homes and that the Russians destroyed a ton of infrastructure while they were supposedly preparing to pull back?

[Tatar Khan]

Intervie between Putin and CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/29/putin.transcript/

Of course CNN cut out the part where Putin pointed out that CNN and other western agencies did not report the conflict until Russian main forces entered into the conflict.

[Edric O]

...yea right.

Russian Propaganda.

I see no reason to believe the Georgian side any more than the Russian side.

[Sneakgab]

Where did the info in question originally come from anyway? Mr Flibble cites no sources. So even assuming this is ''Russian'' propoganda specifically may be in question (if this claim is propoganda).

[MrFlibble]

post-1991 Russian actions: granting people in foreign lands citizenship to gain leverage there

Many South Ossetians have relatives and friends in North Ossetia, which is part of Russia. This is one of the reasons for them having Russian citizenship. By the way, many also Georgians have relatives in Russia, and quite a few have double citizenship as well.

[exatreide]

Video showing Georgian troops shooting at civilians

http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29914

[vota dc]

I fully support Georgia on this, the South Ossetian separatists are fools, we don't need more and more of these tiny, unstable micro-countries springing up like mushrooms everywhere. They usually have no prospects and leech off a bigger nieghbour for support - in this case, SO leeches off Russia. Sure, Ossetians are a different ethnic group than Georgians, but so are Basques different from the Spanish, Tibetans from the Chinese, etc. Doesn't mean we should give them all independance - Tibet was ruled an archaic, feudal society, almost totally lacking modern medicine(if a body part was amputated, the wound was sterilized in boiling butter - yum!). But I digress. This isn't about Tibet, this is about South Ossetia.

Too bad.Every nation deserve indipendence.Of course South Ossetia as a country sounds stupid and could seem a russian puppet,but a united Ossetia is difficult:how to convince Russia to cede North Ossetia to the ossetian?

Micro-country are good.In Europe there are a lot of invented big country like Italy (italian is the language of Florence,the other area have a different indigene language) or Belgium.A lot of people is complaining against Belgium,but I never heard someone complain against San Marino or Andorra....so why don't support the indipendence of Ossetia.

[Tatar Khan]

Too bad.Every nation deserve indipendence.Of course South Ossetia as a country sounds stupid and could seem a russian puppet,but a united Ossetia is difficult:how to convince Russia to cede North Ossetia to the ossetian?

Micro-country are good.In Europe there are a lot of invented big country like Italy (italian is the language of Florence,the other area have a different indigene language) or Belgium.A lot of people is complaining against Belgium,but I never heard someone complain against San Marino or Andorra....so why don't support the indipendence of Ossetia.

It is clear that the South Ossetia would fall into the zone of influence of Russia, form the point of the view of the west the expansion of Russia's sphere of influence is nothing good. Since the fall of the communism Russia lost all the territory it accumulated since the time of Peter I The Great. The growth of Russia's sphere of influence would allow it to challenge the interests of the West in the future. Therefore the independence of South Ossetia is not something that the West would generally support.

[Dunenewt]

Too bad.Every nation deserve indipendence.Of course South Ossetia as a country sounds stupid and could seem a russian puppet,but a united Ossetia is difficult:how to convince Russia to cede North Ossetia to the ossetian?

Micro-country are good.In Europe there are a lot of invented big country like Italy (italian is the language of Florence,the other area have a different indigene language) or Belgium.A lot of people is complaining against Belgium,but I never heard someone complain against San Marino or Andorra....so why don't support the indipendence of Ossetia.

How far do you have to go back to call a country an 'invented' country though?  Do you consider both Italy and Germany to be 'invented' countries, rather than city states united into a nation-state?