Does anyone here have an interest in chemistry?

[gunner154]

Anything can go wrong when you're driving, really.

[Mihail]

I'm sure someone is driving and has a flashback. That would be fun.

And I'm sure thousands of people are driving and have had a bit too much to drink.  :)

[Acriku]

My personal take on drugs, at least on hard drugs (cocaine, heroine) there is no good to come of them. Drugs like shrooms or marijuana are, on the other hand, quite enjoyable and virtually not interfering in regular life. I consider the latter two "soft" drugs anyway, and DEFINITELY not gateway drugs. That's just propaganda there. Here's how I picture the ladder of drugs:

Laughter's endorphin-release < Runner's high < Alcohol drunkenness < Marijuana high < Shroom high < LSD/acid trip <  Heroine/Crack/etc

How I see it anyway.

[Dragoon Knight]

A lot of people are going to disagree with me on this, but here's my stance: all drugs are wrong, and people who take them are stupid.

By drugs, I mean anything you can think of aside from caffiene and alcohol.  Smoking is stupid - it's addictive and kills you.  Any form of illegal drug (cannabis, LSD, whatever) is stupid; addictive or not, you still get a high from it and lots of people will still keep taking it.  You don't have to be physically addicted to something to want it all the time.

They're illegal for a reason.  The only use of drugs that I would condone is for medical purposes.  Medicinal cannabis (pill format, gives no high whatsoever) can be used to reduce pain in people who suffer from certain debilitating diseases such as Multiple Sclerosis.  But using just to "get high" is something I look down on.

Now you can throw evidence at me and question my judgement; it's just my opinion.  You can say "but look, Dragoon Knight!  These facts show X and Y and Z!" and I'll say to you that your facts are worth less than the cow dung that "shrooms" grow so well on.  People who take drugs will likely cause harm to themselves or others, whether it be physical or mental or financial.  They're stupid and people who take them need to seek help.

[Acriku]

Did you get hired by D.A.R.E. dragoon? Anyway, it seems you either have no experience with drugs or have only seen people at their lowest when on certain drugs. In my experience, drugs like marijuana share the same potency as alcohol (although the intake difference creates a slower effect for alcohol). There is absolutely no excuse to differentiate between the two. They are both reality-escaping drugs, and both can be abused to large extents. Having one legal and the other not is a matter of legal b.s. depending on who is in session in Congress. They tried to make alcohol illegal, and that failed horribly. The only reason marijuana hasn't had a backlash like that is because 1) it wasn't as popular as alcohol and 2) it was never as commercialized and accepted as alcohol. So do not make the mistake of excusing alcohol out of the matter. If you're against marijuana for all it entails, alcohol should go right with it.

And since when is a "high" a bad thing? Cops get adrenaline highs all the time when they're in high-intensity chases or hold-ups. Runners enjoy the endorphin-rush high they receive after a good run. I sincerely believe it is brainwashing that makes people think there is a difference between those "highs" and drug "highs".

[Mihail]

Exactly, I really don't understand why some people think all drugs are horrible, but continue to drink. There was a program on some sister channel of the BBC, about the top 20 dangerous drugs, and both cannabis and LSD and extacsy were below alcohol(alcohol was #5).

And I agree with you, Acriku, about the high thing - it seems to be brainwashed into people that getting high and having a good time is wrong. Like police and propaganda sites always tell you that there are thousands of Americans/Britons/whatever getting high at this very moment. OH NOEZS! :O They're not running over small children with a cement roller, they're having an enjoyable time alone or with friends.

[gunner154]

The worst things that are resulted by psychological episodes don't need to be caused by external substances. It's just a matter of whether the substances are there or not, and you can go nuts naturally.

[Tatar Khan]

Ok with regards to the LSD as a drug it is a a hallucinogenic drug. LSD was sinthetically derived from ergot

Ergot (Claviceps purpurea) is the name given to a parasitic fungus that is found in diseased grasses and sedges, most markedly in rye crops. In early Europe and elsewhere rye infected with this fungus was sometimes eaten, causing mass outbreaks of ergotism, the effects of which are detailed below. The psychoactive alkaloids of ergot are mostly derivatives of lysergic acid and have hallucinogenic effects. LSD (see LSD) was synthetically derived from ergot

by Albert Hofmann.

To summarise some of the article on ergot: Archaeologist Jeremy Dronfield has suggested that neolithic residents of Ireland used ergot to inspire cave art. (Basis on this is the images seen under influence resemble images on the cave walls.) Ergot poisioning was a major problem in ancient Mesopotamia. Albert Hofmann, R. Gordon Wasson, Carl Ruck argued that ergot was the entheogen in Greek Eleusinian Mysteries.

continuing on with the article

Ergotism was the cause of terrible suffering in Europe, particularly during the Middle Ages, when it was called St Anthony's Fire, the Divine Wrath and sacer ignis or Holy Fire. There are records of ergotic outbreaks as early as AD 857, and to give some idea of the scale of this affliction 40,000 people are said to have died in Aquitaine in the year 994. Ergotism had extreme effects on both the body and the mind. It caused convulsions, severe mental disturbance and precipitated epileptic fits. Even worse was the gangrenous infection that it caused. The limbs went black and swelled up and the loss of hands, feet and even whole limbs was commonplace. One grisly anecdote will suffice to demonstrate the appalling suffering caused by ergotism. A woman who was suffering with the disease was riding to hospital on an ass when her leg knocked against a

shrub; the force of this contact was enough to make her leg fall off. She is then said to have carried it in her arms to the hospital.

Medicinal uses in the Middle Ages was ergot mixed with juniper berries to cause abortions, use of ergot by midwifes to induce labour.

Recently pergoryte mesolyte and ergot derivative is used to treat Parkinson disease.

From my personal experience: a person who used ergot said that one should be very careful about it.

LSD

The accidental discovery of the hallucinogenic effects of LSD by Albert Hofmann is one of the most famous, if not the most famous, incidents in the modern history of drug use. Before and during the Second World War Dr Hofmann was a research chemist for the Sandoz pharmaceutical company in Basle, Switzerland. For a number ofyears he had been involved in research on the parasitic fungus ergot (see Ergot) and had succeeded in synthesising a number of ergotamine molecules considered to have potential in the development of medicines. He named one such chemical that he had initially discovered in 1938 LSD-25, but at that stage had no idea of its psychoactive properties nor the amazing social consequences that it would have. On Friday 16 April 1943, whilst

he was making up some more LSD-25, he drank a crystalline preparation of it in a glass of water. He felt slightly sick and, unaware that this was due to the substance in question, he presumed he was getting a cold and thought it best to go home to bed. But later as he lay in his bed the hallucinogenic effects unfolded before him in: 'an uninterrupted stream of fantastic images of extraordinary plasticity and vividness and accompanied by an intense kaleidoscopic play of colours.' Being almost certain that these extraordinary effects were due to LSD-25, he decided the following Monday to consume it again. Thus, that afternoon about 4.20 p.m., he took it again, this time with some assistants present. By around 5 p.m. he had embarked on a full LSD trip and decided to cycle home with an assistant acting as his minder...Hofmann was experiencing powerful hallucinations under the influence of LSD and when he finally got home he had an out-of-body experience in which he was looking down on what seemed to him to be his own dead body.

LSD is a widely used drug and to most people the experience seems to be a purely recreational activity. However, there are those who have found it to be of great emotional and intellectual value. The film star Cary Grant took LSD after a long period of depression and felt that he had been reborn. His enthusiasm to share this experience with others was quashed by his agent who no doubt correctly - thought it would result in a scandal. Michel Foucault, the inheritor of Jean-Paul Sartre's mantle as the unofficial president of the French intelligentsia, whilst visiting the United States in the 1980s, had his first LSD experience at Death Valley. It is reported that it had a profound effect on him and influenced the tenor of his later works.

Now in small quantities the health effects of LSD are not serious in the large however it can cause the effects of the ergot.

The articles are taken from the Richard Rugley's Encyclopedia of Psychoactive substances. If there is demand I can post articles on cannabis (marijuana) and cactii and mescaline. Now contrary to popular beleive marijuana was a popular drug however it was outlawed for smoking for the cultural reasons as it started to be associated in North America with blacks and latinos and in Europe due to need of use of hemp fiber rather than burning it.

Overall from my study of Stone Age drugs have been with humans as long as the last ones existed and the use of them seems to be the natural attraction of humans to mind altering substances. The only drugs I would recommend to staying really away is the drugs of opium family (opium, morphine and heroin, the last one is the worst possible drug out there). Contrary to Clemenza statement about heroin users leading a natural life I can only say that heroin use alters biology of human brain and that damage can not be undone, so the final effect is slow destruction of nervous system. Heroin users and past users could be spotted through their actions are slightly too jerky for regular human actions. This comes from damage to nervous system.

[Mihail]

Ah, well, you're probably right. :) I know about several semi-known people who used opiates and heroin and led mostly normal lives, that is, they didn't become junkies or anything of that ilk, but I admit that I haven't researched the physical health effects of longterm heroin use.

As for ergot and LSD - I think your friend must have been very lucky indeed, since ergot can and does cause St. Anthony's Fire, necrosis and gangrene of the skin. Thousands died from ergot-infected grain in the middle ages. But I disagree with you about the statement that you can get the physical ailments of ergot from large doses of LSD. Yes, LSD is derived from ergot, but in the process of making it, all the harmful, dangerous alkaloids and other things that could cause St. Anthony's Fire are disposed of. Also, I've never heard of anyone getting St. Anthony's Fire from eating large doses of LSD - including the acid heads of the sixties and one moderator on a different forum who supposedly ate 55-60 tabs during the course of a night in the 80's.

[Dragoon Knight]

Like I said before, you can all argue until you're blue in the face that alcohol is worse than cannabis, or whatever.  You can put forward your propositions and proof that there is "no difference" between a runner's high and taking drugs.  You're all still wrong; trying to excuse your actions or beliefs with arguments that are flimsy at best.

Drugs are illegal.  Alcohol is not.  Doesn't matter if a ban was attempted way back when; it's legal now.  Alcohol is nowhere near as addictive as any drug in the majority of cases.  Runners get their high by running, not rolling.  Drugs are wrong - some part of us all knows this to be true but ignores it for different reasons.

Made my point, I think.  Any further posting from me here is just going to get people upset (likely myself, stubborn arse that I am).  Just know that any justification you made for recreational use of illegal drugs will never be good enough.  NEVER.

[Mihail]

Yes, you did make your point, quite clearly as well.  :) And I respect your opinion, but it is pretty sad to see that you just accept what you're told in regards to drugs without even trying to do some research about the facts. And our arguments may be flimsy, but there are a multitude of studies and testaments from respected scientists and other researchers, not to mention an impressive number of judges and high-ranking bureacrats and officials about the amount of harm - that is, lack of it - that some drugs can do.

You made your point, I made mine, and I'll respect your beliefs, even though I think they're wrong and misguided.  :-

[spicy]

there is nothing wrong or bad in smoking fresh green buds of mariguana ..

you say its illegal ? well its not in Holland or jamaica and in uk or aus smoking a joint

is not a big crime and you are done with a warning. that is in case you met a silly officer ..

peace ..

[Dante]

And I respect your opinion, but it is pretty sad to see that you just accept what you're told in regards to drugs without even trying to do some research about the facts.

Ok, I told myself I wouldn't stoop to enter this topic again, but you just have to keep pushing, don't you?

Sometimes research just isn't necessary. Sometimes you can see the truth yourself. Smell it. Touch it. When you watch someone you care about descend deeper and deeper into addiction, depression, bankruptcy. When they stop caring about their friends, their family, about you, and they only live for the next high, the next hit. And try as you might, you cannot interfere without making it worse. And eventually they push themselves too far.

And you talk about 'chemistry.' And you whine about legality and alcohol laws (yes alcohol is a drug, in fact it is technically a poison, and it does exactly the same thing to a person). And you think that playing with the brain and metabolism and long-term health effects is fun, that it's a game, that it doesn't do any harm. And to the people who have been forced to watch their friends and lovers and family members drink, smoke or inject themselves into a stupor from which they will eventually not awake, you are revolting.

Now shut up.

[Acriku]

Dante, I imagine there are a whole lot of things to ruin a man's life, including drugs. A lot of things that most normal people do not have ruin their lives. With hard drugs, cocaine and heroine e.g., it is a lot easier to ruin your own life. And I wholeheartedly agree and I believe that these drugs should be destroyed from the earth. As for marijuana, I keep being surprised by normal, average people admitting to smoke marijuana. People who don't even look like junkheads. It really doesn't seem like a bad thing for people. Sure, constantly smoking it can prohibit a normal life, and induce cancer in the lungs. Most things are bad in excessive amounts.

[Andrew]

Alcohol and gambling are just as dangerous to a person as drugs (of course oxycotin is worse). Having seen a real alcoholic (drunk every single night and then off to work in the morning) and a problem gambler (blows all their money), they are very bad.

There isn't much wrong with marijuana (no worse than smoking cigs) as long as they are not operating machinery etc (same restrictions as alcohol).

Might as well make marijuana legal, tax and control it just like cigarettes and alcohol.

I don't think there are any benefits (not including medicinal) of cocaine and other hard drugs though.

[Mihail]

Ok, I told myself I wouldn't stoop to enter this topic again, but you just have to keep pushing, don't you?

Sometimes research just isn't necessary. Sometimes you can see the truth yourself. Smell it. Touch it. When you watch someone you care about descend deeper and deeper into addiction, depression, bankruptcy. When they stop caring about their friends, their family, about you, and they only live for the next high, the next hit. And try as you might, you cannot interfere without making it worse. And eventually they push themselves too far.

And you talk about 'chemistry.' And you whine about legality and alcohol laws (yes alcohol is a drug, in fact it is technically a poison, and it does exactly the same thing to a person). And you think that playing with the brain and metabolism and long-term health effects is fun, that it's a game, that it doesn't do any harm. And to the people who have been forced to watch their friends and lovers and family members drink, smoke or inject themselves into a stupor from which they will eventually not awake, you are revolting.

Now shut up.

Which would be all fine and dandy, and I would take your command/advice to the very word, if not for the rather large fact that you overlooked that in no point in this topic did I defend hard drugs - I certainly don't think that the drugs that are traditionally injected are fun, I think they're horrible, and I said so earlier in this topic. I am only defending psychadelics, and if you say that you've seen someone become addicted to and die or have their lives irreparably ruined by mushrooms or to acid or salvia or DMT-containing plants, then YOU might as well shut up, because that is plain ignorance and a nasty generalisation that ALL drugs, without exception, are addictive and will make a shell out of a person.

So stop attacking me for something I didn't say.

[spicy]

Ok, I told myself I wouldn't stoop to enter this topic again, but you just have to keep pushing, don't you?

Sometimes research just isn't necessary. Sometimes you can see the truth yourself. Smell it. Touch it. When you watch someone you care about descend deeper and deeper into addiction, depression, bankruptcy. When they stop caring about their friends, their family, about you, and they only live for the next high, the next hit. And try as you might, you cannot interfere without making it worse. And eventually they push themselves too far.

And you talk about 'chemistry.' And you whine about legality and alcohol laws (yes alcohol is a drug, in fact it is technically a poison, and it does exactly the same thing to a person). And you think that playing with the brain and metabolism and long-term health effects is fun, that it's a game, that it doesn't do any harm. And to the people who have been forced to watch their friends and lovers and family members drink, smoke or inject themselves into a stupor from which they will eventually not awake, you are revolting.

Now shut up.

oh yeah , we wont shot up.. now we must say to every person here :

STAY HEALTHY DONT DRINK DONT SMOKE ANYTHING AND DONT BE A PERVERT ,, and workout everyday.

and be good and work and love ure family and friends and you will live long and happy

and go to heaven even .....

all the religions and the doctors and the parents say that and its true 100% 

but what is the realty here dante ? ! $

the realty is that 80% of you western peapol  are alcoholics specially youth ..

and the alcohol industry is not banned coz it makes money more than anything eals...

  with food you need wine with sun you need beer with night you need whiskey with cold its

time for vodka and liqueurs . isnt that the truth ? there is no western  movie or sere

without alcohol scattered all over the place  and the actors are drinking all the time ...

if not doping as well ... i am surprised you dont drink ure self .. not even beers?

English peapol are all addicted to dry  martini coz of 007 the biggest drunk in da house

yea rock it baby and dont be no drag You're gonna lively up yourself and don't say, "No"

You're gonna lively up yourself 'cause I said so!

hehe spicy loves you all  ....

[gunner154]

hehe spicy loves you all  ....

We know, darling ;)

It's really sad to see how assertions can be thrown about the thread without logical arguments to support them. And something that is lawful doesn't necessarily have to be right, and vice versa. But that's for PRP anyway.

[Dunenewt]

Just a Dune related point, but in the Science of Dune book I bought earlier in the week, there is a very interesting article about the Spice Melange, saying how it is a kind of drug, and compares it to different drugs. 

[spicy]

u bet that is true.. coz it makes you high and alter your senses

back in the 90s me and my cousin used to get stoned while playing

he always say to me that spice looks like the red powder you find

on ganja buds .. and those red buds are so powerfully he used

to say that is the spice melange in big quantity and he likes

harvesting all day .. heh heh  hilarious stuff ...

ive never been throw alcohol but in my 20s i smoked weed like a hippy

and i enjoyed every every minuet of it now am 37 i stoped smoking

weed 10 years ago coz am scared of the violent  egyptian police

i am strong like a bull and i run 5 kilometers everyday

i never had any health issues

[spicy]

u can see the red powder on the 2 pic

[Dunenewt]

It took me ages to work out what those pictures were...how naive do I feel now!

[gunner154]

I see... a plant. And an insect.

[spicy]

well i hop that is not my problem guys .. lol .. those are classic old marijuana buds that

even my granma would remember  ..

here is another one for you this one is good on the desktop background

[D2k Sardaukar]

Remember, coffee is also drugs.

Coffee is the most widely used psychotropic beverage in the world. In 1999 the average consumption of coffee was 3.5 cups per day per U.S. citizen.[1]