Israel Issues

[VigilVirus]

"does not give Israel the right to murder the tourists of a sovereign nation like Canada."

To be honest, I don't see what nationality has to do with it at all. Either you're an active participant in the attacks on Israel, or you're an innocent. It's never actually stated, but it's assumed by foreign media that it's one thing to kill a Lebanese but quite another to kill a foreigner, which implies that the Lebanese people somehow deserve it. The BBC has tried to gloss over it by making a point of interviewing Arab Brits who've escaped, which strikes me as shouting 'We're not racists!', but it's not racism that's the issue as much as prejudice by nationality. (Sorry, petty rant.)

My point being that if kidnapped soldiers is considered an act of war, why is killing the citizens of another nation in a military operation not an act of war? I never meant to value Canadians above the Lebanese, I just chose to bring up a point that countries like Canada should be outraged at what has happened, yet I hear no condemnation.

As for the answer for the kidnapped soldiers, I personally think they should not have been negotiated for, but ignored completely. It's better to let two soldiers die than killing thousands civilians in attempt to save them.

[nemafakei]

"why is killing the citizens of another nation in a military operation not an act of war"

I think that falls well and truly under the collateral damage argument that covers the 300+ Lebanese so far confirmed dead. If you're making war on another country (which Israel's theoretically not, but that's a balloonful to be popped separately), it's inevitable that foreigners will be in the firing line as much as native civilians. An attack on one country can't be considered an attack on every single country in the world who has a tourist there - not in a practical sense, at any rate. And actually, the Israeli government has been rather supportive as far as Western visitors are concerned.

[Tatar Khan]

The question constantly pops up in the thread is why the Israeli attacks are not considerd act of war. According to international laws (Geneva Convention I think) war could be started only by official declaration or by invasion into the conutry throug land or sea. Bombing the country is not considered and act of war. Missle strikes are not considered act of war either.

The sad part is that Lebanese people will be left with damage repair.

[Davidu]

I see nobody is actually trying to look up a solution, nobody is trying to clarify anything. Everyone is shouting about the right to do one thing and the right to do another thing. Go on and point fingers. That will solve everything!

I am sorry if I offended someone with the link I posted, but that is the face of war that has to be seen. The image of soldiers and tanks and military equipment makes one feel powerful. But that is not war, that is a military parade. War is what you see in that photos. I had not posted a link to photos with jewish victims/Hezbollah attacks because they were already in the link someone posted before me.

But I see everyone considers it propaganda for one side or the other. Very well. Consider it what you will. If instead of trying to reach a solution, or even to try to sort things out, everyone is blaming everyone invoking the right of being there first, of authority, of land ownership and such, well, let me tell you these things can go on forever. It will never stop. And if you do not stop this way of thinking you will slaughter yourselves over and over again. I am amased how few people can learn from history. In fact no one actually learns from history. Everyone is using it as a holy book for their own beliefs.

I took the side of the lebanese civilians because they were caught in the middle. And because I still think no state should use those methods. Defending yourself is one thing, and bombing residencial areas because there are enemies in there is morally dangerous.

I wonder if anyone thought their moves on the long term. What the hell is Hezbollah trying to achieve? They drove the Israelis out of Lebanon. That was their mission, right? Why go on? The palestinians finnaly were recognised as a state and have a guvernement. Their terrorist wings should now be disbanded. The attack the Israelis are carrying out now will only thicken the ranks of Hezbollah. In the era of television, propaganda is the best weapon. Hezbollah has to be discredited, so it will disband itself. Make them look evil so no one wishes to join them. But the attack Israel is mounting on Lebabon will only increase that population's harted towards Israel, as Hezbollah's attacks will only increase israelians' hatred towards Lebanon and arabs. What I mean is that on the long term nothing is solved. This only maintains the hatred at a level that will constantly spark violence and make that area a great market for weapons from all over the world.

Yes, my friends, you are being used. Itzak Rabin and Ariel Sharon made firm steps towards peace. They wanted all this to end. Now, that they are not anymore emotions run wild and pull the trigger. On both sides.

I hope you see my point of view, and don't blame me for taking the side of the lebanese civilians. The Israelians have the military to protect them, while the lebanese are used as human shields by Hezbollah.

[nemafakei]

"I am sorry if I offended someone with the link I posted"

I wasn't trying to censor (or even censure) you, I was just making it clear what the link was pointing to, in the same way that I'd modify a post to say 'Beware dial-up users: this is a 30MB download'.

That's all I really want to respond to on that post, other than that my solution would be immediate ceasefire on all sides, and a belief that sufficiently persistent (and consistent) commitments to peace by one side will eventually destroy the will to fight on the other. Such commitments have been thoroughly lacking on the parts of those in real power.

[chatfsh]

I see nobody is actually trying to look up a solution, nobody is trying to clarify anything. Everyone is shouting about the right to do one thing and the right to do another thing. Go on and point fingers. That will solve everything!

Solutions, uhmm

[Davidu]

Well, the site that published them clearly uses them for propaganda, but as I said, I posted the link as a statement not as propaganda.

[Mihail]

This is interesting. I decided against making a new topic for this, since it might be a crazy conspiracy theory, but it looks sounds. Makes you think, too...

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

[Shiroko]

might be a crazy conspiracy theory

Might?  ::)

[Mihail]

Might?  ::)

Stop being so haughty and mighty. It might, but I think there are too many sources for it to not at least have some kernel of truth. Besides, can you provide any compelling argument against it? I think that it is entirely possible that the Mossad knew about the upcoming attacks but refrained from telling the their US counterparts about it. Think about it. The Mossad is charged with protecting the state of Israel. It makes sense that it would monitor Muslims and Arabs more than other people, for obvious reasons. They stumble upon the planning for the attacks, but decide against telling the CIA or FBi or what have you about them since it would garner sympathy for the Israeli people and Jews in general. By the way, the most damning evidence I think is this:

Several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."(24)

(24) = http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0622-05.htm at the very bottom.

[Mihail]

By the way, here is some more scary news:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/odigo_9-11_warning.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hundreds.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israelswithnukes.html

So stop writing it all of as crazy talk, Shiroko, ignorance is NOT strength.

[Purge]

By the way, here is some more scary news:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/odigo_9-11_warning.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hundreds.html

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israelswithnukes.html

So stop writing it all of as crazy talk, Shiroko, ignorance is NOT strength.

Then why are you attempting to parade such as strength?

[Mihail]

Then why are you attempting to use ignorance as ammunition?

Again, no compelling argument against posted sites. Stop going off the current topic.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,170-2282992,00.html

WITH an expression of utmost calm on her blood-masked face, the woman allowed herself to be gently lowered from the minibus into the waiting arms of two Lebanese Red Cross volunteers.

The rescue workers had extracted her through a jagged hole in the roof of the crumpled bus, created by a missile fired minutes earlier by an Israeli helicopter that had blasted the vehicle off the road. Left behind in the vehicle, slumped over each other and soaked in blood, were the bodies of three people.

But hey-hey, civilians are easier to hit when they're out in the open, right? And of course, they're out in the open because they're fleeing, just like Israeli pamphlets told them to!

Another classic shoot first ask questions later scenario. ::)

[Dunenewt]

By the way, here is some more scary news:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/odigo_9-11_warning.html

Can't be bothered to read the rest of the articles.  This makes no real point, other than to say that allegedly two people received warnings of the attacks.  People also said Nostrodamus predicted them...

[Mihail]

I admit that that story is not all convincing, but you can't just simply brush off the rest of the articles.

EDIT: Nevermind, I see you wrote you didn't read the rest. Well, when you have time, read them.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/7/24/9345/61853

Make sure to read the part at the end of the page( AFTER "Whoops...lather, rinse, repeat..." ). This applies especially for Americans.

[Dunenewt]

Israel has been terrorised for years, and every time it does something about it, people critisize it.  Its damned if it does, damned if it doesn't.  Its doing the right thing, looking out for its citizens.  Something Lebanon wont do.

[Andrew]

U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis

So the US is supplying Israel with laser guided bombs, and since Israel is firing so many, they need to speed up the delivery process.

So the US fully supports the bombing of Lebanon.

Good job!

[Dunenewt]

It is.  Hopefully together they can wipe out Hezzy.

[Shiroko]

U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis

So the US is supplying Israel with laser guided bombs, and since Israel is firing so many, they need to speed up the delivery process.

So the US fully supports the bombing of Lebanon.

Good job!

The speeding is about some anti-bunker ammunation that was bought already. Israel simply asked it now insteado f 6 months later.

[Shiroko]

The aformentioned israelis are without a doubt take the prize for being idiots.

The translkation is distorted. Nothing special about people starting filiming terror sites in Israel so it seemed natural to them.

Picturing yourself with the tower burning in the bacjground is more than untactful but does not make you the planner of it.

And if you think the mossad is the best in its field in the world, why would it have such idiots standing in the open having fun in front of the towers?

And yes tourists rarely hang around with cameras....

Not very bright.

Two israelis died in the towers, removing the idiotic claim about Israel notifying its citizens.

There's in fact a full book that descirbes this conspiracy, and I've seen too much shit that contradicts each and every of its claims.

Israel BTW did gain from 9/11. No one took seriously the terror threat before that. But listening to this piece of crap is like watching Farenheit 9/11 and thinking that moive is true. I suggest you click all of the sources there and see how much interpretation is needed to create the bigger picture.

Every Israeli probably thought at some point that now America will understand us better, that's fair enough and logical to hope that Israel would get some support against the palestinians and the awful year it has been through. But planning it?  The fact that identities of all the terrorists are known? Their nationalities?

Claiming the Ben-Laden tape connecting him is in fact fake.

Which doesn't explain how he knew right on this day to disconnect his satellite phone?

[Mihail]

*Clap clap* Bravo, Israel! That was damn effiecient of you, attacking those pesky amublances! After all, they might be ferrying dirty bombs and weapons for those crazy Hezbollers! It's inconcievable that people who have lost legs or eyes or arms or have 3rd degree burns are in there, right?  ::)

Hey - I got a craaaazy idea! You're gonna love it! Since them ambulances is transportin' them weapons and dirty bombs, and all of those ambulances go to them hospeetals, bomb the hospeetals! That'll take care of them pesky Hezbollers!

What. The. dash.  >:( And old grandmother with a son and grandson, rocketed by dashing Israeli jets! And just when they thought they were safe and going to make it, since, y'know, noone usually attacks goddamn AMBULANCES. It's called HUMANITY, y'know? Bravo, bravo. The man lost his legs! I demand an encore.  :)

::)

Nvm, the link isn't working. Go here and on the right hand side you should see Results from BBC Video and Audio. Click on the topmost one in the box.

http://search.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?scope=all&edition=i&q=Ambulances+attacked&go.x=0&go.y=0&go=go

[Andrew]

Ambulance drivers tell tales of horror

There you go Clemenza.

We all know that everyone in Lebanon is a terrorist, and therefore Israel was just finishing the job of bombing the lebanese earlier, since they survived that first attack. They needed to take out the ambulance before those terrorists were able to survive surgery.

It's possible they were not targeted at all. As usually missiles blow up vehicles, not put a hole in the roof.

[Mihail]

It's possible they were not targeted at all. As usually missiles blow up vehicles, not put a hole in the roof.

No, they were. I saw pictures of them on the BBC website, the ambulance was ripped apart. The inside was charred and blackened, metal was twisted and destroyed. And this was a direct hit, not damage from a nearby explosion.

By the way, in the same article:

The Israel Defense Forces said last night that Israeli fire hit an ambulance during fighting in the Qana area, east of Tyre. ``The IDF never intentionally targets civilians, much less ambulances," a spokesman said. ``It should be noted that the area in which the incident took place is one from which there is intensive missile fire" directed toward Israel.

So you should go and bomb ambulances, not Hezbollah hideouts. ::) I fail to see how that argument can defend the attack in any way. Okay, there is alot of missile fire into Israel from that region. But why go and blow up ambulances, for chrissake?

The paramedics used a cellphone to call the Tyre office to send another ambulance to pick them up.

Thank God for modern technology, at least.

``We are obliged to go out and save people," said Imad Hillal, 38, the second-in-command at the Tyre branch of the Red Cross. ``We count on Israel to respect the neutrality of the Red Cross, but they don't."

[Mihail]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

You know what? Dash Israel. Now they've just gone and killed 4 UN peacekeepers. Dash Israel and dash the IDF, because these kinds of attacks are both dashing stupid and unhuman. First they kill peacekeepers, and then shell the dashing rescue team that could've saved thos mens's lives?!

Hey Shiroko, I'd like to see you try to justify this one. Ready? Set? Go!

::)

[Edric O]

I can see the Israeli point of view. They are frustrated by this never-ending war, they want to get rid of Hezbollah, and they think the way to do it is by overwhelming force. "Sure," they think, "there will be many civilian casualties, but at least we'll finally have peace. It's a price worth paying. Besides, all this blood is on Hezbollah's hands, not ours. They provoked us."

Unfortunately, there won't be any peace at the end of this operation. Not even a limited peace along Israel's northern border. All the killing is in vain. Israel's biggest mistake is its failure to understand that the more people you kill, the more people you will have wanting to kill you out of vengeance. You could kill every single member of Hezbollah, and within 5 years you'll have a brand new organization taking its place.

In principle, I like the idea of having a Jewish state. I really do. But if the price of having this Jewish state is eternal war, then it's not worth it. Surely Israelis must see that? As Dante pointed out a few days ago, the whole purpose behind the creation of Israel was to have a safe haven for Jews. But Jews are not safe in Israel. The experiment has failed. That doesn't mean that the idea of having a Jewish state in general has failed. The idea is good, and some Jewish state is clearly needed. But this Jewish state is a failure.

It's time to start thinking of a different kind of Jewish state.