Israel Issues

[leo]

Then the people are evacuated, and the policeman retreats to a sensible distance.

We can't retreat from missiles, can't we?

[Dante]

And he's holding a woman in front of him? Then to shoot him you would have to shoot through the woman. That's not an option, not least because humans make passable shields: shoot her and all you've done is turn a living shield into a dead one. Besides which, the prohibition against shooting people is what "seperates us from them," to use the vernacular.

We can't retreat from missiles, can't we?

That's a very well armed robber.

[Dunenewt]

We can't retreat from missiles, can't we?

In which case the example doesn't fit.

[athanasios]

If that woman was my wife I would shoot the policeman afterward. >:(

[leo]

And if this woman wasn't your wife but the robber is about to shoot your wife standing near him and many more wives, fathers and children?

You see not every situation has a solution in which both sides win but it's very convenient to critisize someone else behind a keyboard.

[Dante]

Because the rest of the world couldn't possibly know what it's like to be threatened by an invisible enemy with a disregard for human life, right?

Put simply, there are standards that people are expected to hold themselves to in the international community. If you do not hold to those standards, what seperates you from the people you are fighting?

[Edric O]

Leo, what do you think about Israeli citizenship for Palestinians?

[leo]

I think it's an utopian idea, the whole point of this conflict is that Israelis want to live in Israel and Palestinians want to live in Palestine, it's not about life quality. Besides, call me racist but I don't support the idea that the only jewish state in the world will lose it jewish majority.

[SandChigger]

Well, I'm not overly fond of Israel ... but I'm much less fond of religious fundamentalists and destructive idiots of any flavor. But I would like to say a big thank you to Israel for seemingly going out of its way to keep Arab & Muslim anger and violence focused on itself. :)

I mean, I'd much rather have bombs and rockets in Tel Aviv and Haifa than Topeka and Detroit.

(Well, no, on second thought, losing Detroit wouldn't be so bad... :P )

[chatfsh]

I think it's an utopian idea, the whole point of this conflict is that Israelis want to live in Israel and Palestinians want to live in Palestine, it's not about life quality. Besides, call me racist but I don't support the idea that the only jewish state in the world will lose it jewish majority.

And therein lies the crux of the problem, both the Israelis and the Palestinians are claiming the land of Israel as their rightful territory from antiquity, but fiercely wish to maintain their own separate identities.  So while the democratic bi-national solution (allowing both groups to share the country as one people) may sound perfectly reasonable on the surface it

[Edric O]

I think it's an utopian idea, the whole point of this conflict is that Israelis want to live in Israel and Palestinians want to live in Palestine, it's not about life quality.

Palestinians did not want to live in Palestine until 1967. Pro-Israel groups often argue that there has never been a Palestinian state. This is a true fact, but you're drawing the wrong conclusions from it. Why did the Palestinians suddenly decide they wanted a state of their own? Because everyone treated them like dirt, so it seemed like a Palestinian state was their only chance for a decent life. Give them a decent life in Israel, and the desire for a Palestinian state will fade away in time.

Besides, call me racist but I don't support the idea that the only jewish state in the world will lose it jewish majority.

Here we go. I expected you to say that. So you see, even if the Palestinians were the most peaceful people in the world, even if they loved Israel and wanted to be part of it, you would still not let them return to the land where their grandfathers lived. Because you want to maintain ethnic purity. That is racist. Come on, man, can't you see that Israel has turned into the very thing that its founders sought to escape?

Of all people, the Jews should understand why it is wrong for a state to be established along ethnic lines. You've suffered the most at the hands of ethnic states in the past!

[chatfsh]

Because you want to maintain ethnic purity. That is racist.

What exactly qualifies one as a Jew?  Doesn

[Edric O]

What exactly qualifies one as a Jew? Doesn

[athanasios]

Religion and National pride the mothers of all troubles on earth. :'( >:(

leo: Regardless of what you say what I mentioned is more close to what is happening in reality. And the cycle never ends.

Both Jews and Palestinians who continue this struggle are sub-humans.

[leo]

Palestinians did not want to live in Palestine until 1967. Pro-Israel groups often argue that there has never been a Palestinian state. This is a true fact, but you're drawing the wrong conclusions from it. Why did the Palestinians suddenly decide they wanted a state of their own? Because everyone treated them like dirt, so it seemed like a Palestinian state was their only chance for a decent life. Give them a decent life in Israel, and the desire for a Palestinian state will fade away in time.

Here we go. I expected you to say that. So you see, even if the Palestinians were the most peaceful people in the world, even if they loved Israel and wanted to be part of it, you would still not let them return to the land where their grandfathers lived. Because you want to maintain ethnic purity. That is racist. Come on, man, can't you see that Israel has turned into the very thing that its founders sought to escape?

Of all people, the Jews should understand why it is wrong for a state to be established along ethnic lines. You've suffered the most at the hands of ethnic states in the past!

You are criticizing Israel for wanting to maintain its ethnical majority? Name one country that doesn

[Wolf]

You are criticizing Israel for wanting to maintain its ethnical majority? Name one country that doesn

[Edric O]

You are criticizing Israel for wanting to maintain its ethnical majority? Name one country that doesn

[leo]

No country is on the bridge of losing its identity, when someday let's say 100 million Italians would like to immigrate to Thailand I can assure you that almost all Thai including the government would strongly resist. As I said before it's easy to criticize someone else when you are not in his position.

I repeat, I didn't say that we need to take some ethnic acts to preserve anything but also we don't need to take ethnic acts to do the opposite. No one is banishing anybody or such, there is a legal immigration to Israel not only for Jews like everywhere else in the world. Israel is a secular state with equal rights for all. It's exactly the same in every country, if you have a problem with self definition then maybe you're right but you need to change the world, not Israel.

The parties you mentioned are against immigrants, even legal immigrants because they are of different nationality, it's absolutely different. If Israel will lose it Jewish majority because Israeli Arabs will have more babies or because of legal immigration then there is nothing wrong with that. Accepting millions of Palestinians or Greeks or whatsoever in one day is madness.

[Dante]

If steadily being outnumbered by population growth isn't a problem, then why is being suddenly outnumbered by immigration? It's not like there isn't enough room.

[leo]

If steadily being outnumbered by population growth isn't a problem, then why is being suddenly outnumbered by immigration? It's not like there isn't enough room.

No problem, but this is the way the world works. That's my point, Israel isn't perfect but don't blame it for all the problems in the world, we have been balmed for too many during History.

[Dante]

So in your own words, 'Israel wanting to maintain its ethnical majority' is not Israel's fault?

[leo]

So in your own words, 'Israel wanting to maintain its ethnical majority' is not Israel's fault?

Nope. Like Germany,France, Thailand, China, Morocco(I can go on but I'm not sure I remember most of the countries in the world). The only difference is that we are dealing with Israel.

That's the way our world works, if you want to change it go ahead...

[Dante]

And the behaviour of every other country in the world influences Israel's policy how?

[arnoldo]

If steadily being outnumbered by population growth isn't a problem, then why is being suddenly outnumbered by immigration? It's not like there isn't enough room.

Radical elements within Islam see population growth as a weapon.  The problem is that the region will soon exceed it's carrying capacity resulting in increased tensions.  See: Protracted national conflict and fertility change: Palestinians and Israelis in the 20th Century  Still, the ratio of Palestinians to Jews in Israel will continue to increase as long as Jewish natality remains low. . . or the Jews living outside of Israel leave their respective countries and participate in Aliya to their homeland.

[athanasios]

It is true Islam is a threat to all Western world due to the Islamic population growth. It is the obligation of the governments to stop this not by racist behavior towards Arabs but through other measures. It is a pity that they fail to do this. For example here in Greece the new law for getting citizenship requires among others a good knowledge of the Greek language. Still IMO it is very loose. More prerequisites are needed.

The same could apply for Israel.

For time being enjoy this video:

No! We do not want such people. Either they get civilized or go home.

I really enjoyed leo's comment about millions of Greeks. My friend, didn't we built colonies in ancient Israel? Does Decapolis mean anything to you? Where would you be now if we didn't instill our culture in the minds of your forefathers? Certainly not a western country. Probably yet another theocratic nation of horror.