Israel Issues

[SandChigger]

You mean there are still some left?

[arnoldo]

Bump!

The 'explosive admission' in Israel's Gaza report

White phosphorus used. But, don't worry it's only used for illumination or smokescreen.

oh wait...

^^^^

That's what happens when Hamas fires weapons within civilian areas and pursues a human shield strategy.  Unfortunately Hamas only sees the palestinians as cannon fodder.  >:( 

[Andrew]

So because Hamas uses Human shields, that makes it ok to kill the human shields?

It's like if a bank robber takes a hostage and the police kill the hostage to get to the robber.

I'm not exactly sure how effective white phosphorus is against someone firing a rocket. Only causes fear I would expect (unless it touches you, then you're screwed). I'm sure the human shields are thinking "thank god Israel is firing white phosporus at us, that'll get rid of Hamas".

EDIT:

Israel: No Reason to Think Mossad Killed Hamas Man

So Israel Mossad sneak into Dubai, kill a Hamas person, using fake passports and such.

[nemafakei]

"That's what happens when Hamas fires weapons within civilian areas and pursues a human shield strategy."

Sure, Hamas are nasty, nasty pieces of work. Does that make it right to use White Phosphorus on people who aren't Hamas?

[Andrew]

"That's what happens when Hamas fires weapons within civilian areas and pursues a human shield strategy."

Sure, Hamas are nasty, nasty pieces of work. Does that make it right to use White Phosphorus on people who aren't Hamas?

Yah but if 10 people get hurt by white phosphorus attack there is a chance one of them is Hamas (or hamas supporter)! That makes it worth it. /sarcasm

White phosporus looks kinda flammable too. Are houses there fireproof?

Don't forget if a Hamas is firing rockets, good chance after he's done firing he'll move locations meanwhile the civilians nearby are wondering wtf was that noise? Darn hamas rocket fire? And when they look out window they get white phosphorus in face (or rocket blow up their building).

[athanasios]

"Israel never responds, never confirms and never denies,"

This says it all.

It is a same that for a handful of fanatics/morons on every side whole nations suffer.

[leo]

So because Hamas uses Human shields, that makes it ok to kill the human shields?

It's like if a bank robber takes a hostage and the police kill the hostage to get to the robber.

I'm not exactly sure how effective white phosphorus is against someone firing a rocket. Only causes fear I would expect (unless it touches you, then you're screwed). I'm sure the human shields are thinking "thank god Israel is firing white phosporus at us, that'll get rid of Hamas".

EDIT:

Israel: No Reason to Think Mossad Killed Hamas Man

So Israel Mossad sneak into Dubai, kill a Hamas person, using fake passports and such.

So it should be this way

[Andrew]

So it should be this way

[leo]

So you wouldn't mind if several CIA operatives snuck in Israel and killed those responsible for USS Liberty bombing? Or those responsible for killing UN observers?

You are comparing two mistakes Israel did during wartime for which it deeply apologized and paid compensation with an act of pure terror? You know, sometimes even our soldiers shoot our own soldiers by mistake (it happens quite often actually during wartime).

If you are asking me if it's ok that CIA agents will kill an Israeli citizen that murdered Americans for no reason while Israel didn't arrest him and put him on trial on purpose then not only that I won

[Dante]

It would be a declaration of war if a country carried it out, certainly. Private individuals or groups acting within the borders of a country, that's another matter. A small distinction to some, but it's there.

[leo]

I'm not sure who Andrew meant

[Dante]

Even if that were entirely true - and I'm not convinced that it is - firing into civilian areas is not really fair play. Besides which, history has shown that working with the political arm of a terrorist group can have positive results. As opposed to scattering explosives, which generally doesn't.

[leo]

There is a big difference between firing into civilian areas and fighting with in a civilian area. They fire into civilian populated areas for one reason

[Dante]

That's... really not a big difference at all. As Andrew said above, "So because Hamas uses Human shields, that makes it ok to kill the human shields?"

[leo]

If a robber holds a woman and shoots towards a policeman. The policemen should die or shoot back(trying not to kill the woman of course)?

[Dante]

Our law enforcement is trained not to shoot at hostages. Don't know about yours.

[Dunenewt]

Taser?

[leo]

Our law enforcement is trained not to shoot at hostages. Don't know about yours.

That was not what I said, I gave you a certain situation.

So basically you say let the robber kill 100 policemen just don't let the woman die, great logic man.

[Dunenewt]

There's non lethal weapons too.

[leo]

To fight against terrorism?

[Dante]

Alright, I'll spell it out. Assuming the policemen has no non-lethal weapons at his disposal, he hides from the robber's shots and attempts to negotiate. And if negotiation isn't an option, the robber is watched until the hostage is released. This is why people take hostages, because they know that law enforcement won't shoot them. If the police were prepared to kill hostages in order to catch criminals, there wouldn't be much point in taking hostages, would there?

[leo]

Yes, but then again that is not what I said. This particular robber is firing on everybody - on the police and the people around RIGHT NOW.

[Dunenewt]

Then the people are evacuated, and the policeman retreats to a sensible distance.

[Edric O]

I'm not very familiar with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (mostly because I don't think there's any way to achieve peace without a massive realignment in world politics), but here's a question: Why doesn't Israel try to cut off support for Hamas by giving the Palestinians a better life than Hamas could ever hope to provide? It's not that hard. Israel's living standards are high. Just offer the Palestinians a quick and simple way to get Israeli citizenship. Let them become Israelis, with the same rights as everyone else, and your problem will soon be over. You'll even be able to incorporate the West Bank and Gaza into Israel after a few decades of this policy.

[Dunenewt]

Or alternatively, why don't they support a puppet Palestinian state, which would be controlled by Palestinians who were sympathetic to Israel,  but as Edric said, give them a better quality of life than Hamas could offer.