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[exatreide]

Letto II banned them for his entire reighn and they never came back into style.....for some reason

[Vanguard3000]

Well, on top of Leto's ban on them, shields weren't as cost effective to the "major players" in the Haretics/Chapterhouse universes. The Bene Gesserit and Honoured Matres were largely hand-to-hand fighters, as well as "enhanced" humans, and could thus adapt to shield combat fairly quickly. And the Tlailaxu were capable of literally mass-producing their armies, and had no reason to care about the individual facedancer.

[Muad dib]

I have a pritty tuff question that I just thought of. Between what years did the ministries associate with? (What year in the 1st dune book did FH start with and about what year did he finish with?)

[Andrew]

Umm, Well I'm not certain on the dates, but we could say the first dune book took place at date 0 then about 12 years later dune messiah happened, and then about another 8 years passed until COD happenned, Then 3500 years of LetoII's reign, then maybe another 1500 years pass until Heretics, and about an additional 5-10 for Chapterhouse.

The amount of years I have posted are not 100% correct but are approximate.

On another note, has anyone heard Frank herbert read his books(or part of)? If so are they good? I can get about 5 or more at my library. Wondering if I should.

[Vanguard3000]

I downloaded a bit of the CoD audio book once (ahh, Napster). It was good. Herbert uses womany voices for female characters and everything!

[xenogear74]

welllll since no one answered my other thread! ??? (i love these smileys) i figured i'd ask it again. When on Geidi Prime during Heretics, Miles Teg runs into a group that includes an old woman who appears to "change her appearance" with a brush of her hand, and that the group despises the Honored Matres. Who ARE these people? I might be a tad unclear cause it's been a while since i read, but after going through this forum it made me think of that question again? thanks guys.

[Mahdi]

Face Dancers probably.

[xenogear74]

i was wrong, i looked it up and it wasn't miles. it was burzmali.

[Inoculator9]

No, his name is Miles Teg.

[TMA_1]

got a question to any of you guys, how is it that a sandworm originates from a single sandtrout, but leto the second is a conglomeration of many sandtrout? is he really a sandtrout? or something more?

[Andrew]

I thought Sandworms were formed when several sandtrout got together? Like when there is a spice blow, all the sandtrout gather and may form a small sandworm (they go underground and form it)

If a single sandtrout alone creates a sandworm, then they must have a low rate of reproduction. (as there are lots of sandworms, but not near as many sandworms)

[Vanguard3000]

The worms are created from thoudands of sandtrout; not just one.

[TMA_1]

not always true, read in the appendix, the cycle of the worm says that they come from one sandtrout. They grow after the sandtrout explosion, and the individuals grow into large worms.

[Duneguy]

Ok, this may have been asked and awnsered before, and im sorry if it has and i just skipped over it. I was lying in bed watching my David Lynch's DUNE, thinking about the machine crusade which i just finished a few days ago, and got to wondering. what powered the machines? it never really talks about how they were powered. they did say that they were made of alloys and gelcicutrity. but none of the machines never seemed to have battery trouble.. none seemed to need a boost or anything. maybe just a dumb question but im curious anyhow. thanks

[Vanguard3000]

Yeah, that is pretty wierd. They never make mention of it. Somehow (BJ spoiler)[hide]Erasmus was able to stay in a dark crag with no access to energy.[/hide] Putting aside my comments about the prequels being absolutely full of holes, I guess it's just one of those things left to the imagination. Or something.

[IxianMace]

Err, what was the name of the crystal that Leto II inscribed his 'log' or 'diary' on? Was it of Ixian origin? :-

[TMA_1]

you mean ridulan crystals? if that is the case, they are flat sheets of crystal that are a few atoms thick, but have extreme power. You can put hundreds of thousands of them together and they will still be only a thin booklet. They are inscribed by laser, with only a thought to write them. They come from ix by the way, hope that helps if that was what you meant.

[IxianMace]

Thanks TMA-1, that was exactly what I was looking for. :)

[Vanguard3000]

Just a small correction: The ridulian crystal isn't inscribed with a laser per se. If memory serves, it was a stylus which used a static charge as "ink". Also, inly the Dictatel machine could dictate thoughts.

[TMA_1]

hmm you could be right. and that is what I meant about the dictatle machine. The thoughts of leto would be transmitted into the machine, and from there they would be transcribed onto the ridulan crystal. The distance between communication could be thousands of miles, so while Leto was at the sareer just say, he could still write in his journal.

[TMA_1]

hehe, I just realized how I sounded with that last post, trying to scrap every bit of dignity I could.lol ;D

I looked backo on it and you were write about how the dictatle records on the ridulan.

[Grallon]

Just went trhough the whole thread - pretty informative in a number of cases (though many speculations  ;) ).  Anyway here are my questions:

1) At various points during the books (when I talk about the books I'm refering to the originals - none of the prequels) we have mentions of a multi galactic empire.  Is this just a figure of speech or litteral truth ?  I've read once that bridging the gap between galaxies would be impossible even for hyper luminic vessels.  Perhaps the folding principle nullifies distance .. ???

2) How was CHOAM formed, structured and operated ?  I seem to recall that it was a creature of the Guild - it's merchant arm so to speak.  Yet when Paul negotiated the peace treaty with shaddam IV (and subsequent plots in D:Messiah/ CoD), the breakdown of CHOAM's control is more or less as follow: 50% of voting shares to the Imperial House and the other 50% divided between various other players.  How could it be a Guild's tool if "legally" controlled by external agents  ???

3) If the Golden Path was humanity's "insurance policy", and if Arafel was humanity's extinction, what was the threat causing Arafel ?  Aliens ? Thinking machines ?  The vision Siona during her test seem to indicate the latter.  But in that case does it mean these machines were alien in origins ?  The (terrible) BJ was apparently based on Frank's own notes and mentions copies of Omnius sent to the far reaches of the universe in a strategc bid to surround mankind and ultimately catch it all in one net.  How could this be acheived (multiple galaxies away) at that time since space folding had not been discovered yet ?  And even if the machines were indeed human built and had prefected themselves (thus dicovering fold tech in parallel to humans), why didn't they try to return to their source (the million planet) and fulfill their prime mission (destroy mankind) earlier ?  Following this logic, this menace should have come into contact with an expanding humanity much earlier than 1500 years into the Scattering - in fact, much earlier than Muad'ib's time !  It would seem the threat was not human in origin.

4) What was the nature of the new Face Dancers Ducan Idaho sees behind the shimmering net in Chapterhouse.  Frank tells us they were originally the "new" face dancers sent away during the Scattering.  But they were so good at doing what they were contructed to do, that they eventually reached independance through assimilation of individual minds.  Did this accretion process turned them into KH superbeings all ?  With the abilities so eloquently expounded upon by TMA-1 ?

5) I've never really understood the whole concept of cellular memory as the basis for Other Memory shared by both the Reverend Mothers, Muad'ib and the Tyrant.  From what I understand so far:

- life all organic lifeforms, humans react to the pressures of the environment, adapting to them and to it;

- any sensation experienced (sensory stimuli, thoughts, etc) is recorded by the brain and stored in the flesh at the cellular/molecular level (like ROM ... but how ? electrons shaped in specific configurations ?);

- genetic manipulations combined with the use of Melange can expand the consciousness enough to enable some to retreive this data (thus explaining stories of possesion, reincarnation theories, deja vu, etc);

- once retreived this data expands back to the original uni cellular organism in Earth's primitive ocean... (through the female line for the BG witches and on both sides for Muad'ib & his son).  That's an AWFUL lots of information to be contained in one human brain...  Even counting the theory we're using only 5% of or brain capacity...

6) Leto II said he had the memories of all humans in him ...  again is this literal or just a figure of speech - meaning he had enough exemples as to constitute an accurate portrait ?

7) How was Sheeana immune to sexual bonding ?  Through her education alone or another by product of Atreides' wild genes ?

Well that's enough for now  ;D

G.

[Vanguard3000]

Being two o'clock right now, I may not answer all of your questions right now, but I'll be sure to get to the rest tomorrow (or rather, later today ;)).  Okay, here we go:

1)  The exact boundaries of the Imperium are never made clear in the books.  The main locations in the books are in our own galaxy.  We know this because their "stellar addresses" are often mentioned in the Terminology of the Imperium, at the end of Dune.  Arrakis, for example, orbits Canopus, one of the brightest stars in the night sky.

I believe that, although the majority of documented/settled planets are in our galaxy, there would be other settlements in others.  Older settlements, and an "original empire" would be in our own galaxy of course, due to the pre-guild times, when "hyperluminic" travel, as you put it, depended on physical movement of some kind ("warp drive", "hyperspace", whatever you want to call it)  But folding space isn't like warp drive or hyperspace; it's near-instantaneous travel from one point to another.  Travel is fast no matter how far the destination may be.  With abilities like this, why confine your empire to a single galaxy?

2)  CHOAM is not an official arm of the Guild.  They control comodities and trade - from Caladanian wine and whale fur to the Spice Melange - between planets and Houses.  Transport of such commodities require the Guild's services, of course.  CHOAM monitors planetary feifs - who exports this; who imports that; who needs this; who needs that.  Of course, when the Spice is concerned, the Guild is always present, however.

3)  Leto did not fear the extinction of humanity; he feared it's stagnation, which could lead to extinction.  He was afraid that, without some drastic measure, humans would become aloof and careless (bored, even) as they had become before the Butlerian Jihad, without the drive to expand, seek knowledge, and form new governments not influenced by a single, absolute ruler.  The Golden Path involved opressing the people under his rule for so long that they would no longer stand for such an existence after his death.

To be, as they say, continued.  Good night, all.

[Vanguard3000]

4)  The two face dancers were face dancers who had gained total independance from their Tleilaxu masters.  In Heretics, we see the "advanced" face dancers, who can actually inherit the memories of the people they "become" to the extent that they can actually forget they were face dancers to begin with.  The two seen in Chapterhouse are totally dependant.  I believe they had left during the scattering, and had returned at the same time as the Honoured Matres.  Perhaps TMA or someone else can clarify this a bit, as I'm not one hundred per cent sure what their story is myself.

5)  I believe "other memory" actually became encoded into our DNA, so that we are born with the "memory" of our anscestors.  It is similar to how instinct is ingrained in all animals.  A wolf doesn't have to learn to require food; it just knows it does.  Other Memory is a similar concept to this, I believe.  The main difference is that, unlike instinct, it has to be "unlocked" to be accessed.

6)  He had the memory-consciousness of all of his anscestors.  On a few occasions, he talks about having chats with General Agammemnon (the Greek; not that stupid cymek).

[TMA_1]

1: In heretics it talks about multi galactic travel, I will find the page number for you. (This could be only after the scattering though, when peoples moved beyond the bounds of known space. Think that is the case vanguard?)

2: CHOAM is a multi armed group, with contracts given to many. It is probably the only bastion of capitalism I have found in the duniverse. THe rest is composed largely of merchant trade, which is a precurser of capitalism, and even though CHOAM appears to be a controller of mercantle trade, it is extremely capitalistic. Because of the fuedal structure, I think thought that it is hard for capitalism to fully take shape.

The major players: Out in the open, the guild owns part of the spice contracts of CHOAM (which is the major source of the merchant collective) Even though it does mention that they dabble in every single interstellar export and import. From cattle to ixian technologies. The guild is far more important though then meets the eye to other houses, most know that. Then you have the ruling house, Corrino, which owns a large amount of the contracts. Along with the other major houses which own smaller portions based on their size and power. Then you have the secret players like the Bene Gesserit, which own a good bite of the CHOAM contracts.  There are other players, but what I mentioned above is the main portion of owners. I got most of that info from Dune. I can give you pages if you desire. I just thought I would fill in on your info vanny. ;) hehe Though your discription is probably more exact and to the point. THought it would be good to mention the players and the importance it has.

3: I always thought that the mention of Arafel had to do with the Ixians, for this reason. The ixians began to build thinking machines once again to fold space and thereby break the monopoly of the guild (though the guild saved much of what they had and continued to work with the ixians with their machines, and still use navigators as well to show that they didnt need ix, though that was a front.

I always saw it as that the ixians would bring upon the universe arafel, when Leto II mentions them connected with the great destruction in the end of the book (god emperor). Almost like that since thinking machines were starting to be recreated, that this was a sign that machines would again come to attack humans? and the ixians creating the thinking machiens for calculating near future events for navigation was just a symbol of this. Even maybe no-ships have something to do with this? I dont know, hard question to answer.

Vanguard said most of what had to be said, though I thought I would try and expand a bit on the machine question and arafel, could be wrong about the info, correct me vanguard if you find any wrongs in it.

4: I never sensed that they had any ability to have prescient abilities. They were able to use a primitive form of "mind-reading", it isnt that per-ce, but they were able to pick up the thoughts of others through specific scientific menas. They could touch into these "other memories" like the bene gesserit, but simply by becoming the person. By becoming the person they took on their other memories. Which is why I agree with vanguard totally on vanguards answer to the 5th question. by simply touching another they could take these coded memories and place them into themselves like the person they take the memories from is like a doppleganger, a symbiosis of sorts. They literally become a person in no uncertain terms. Still, they werent perfect at this. You can see that when one of the face dancers takes over the body of tuek the priest, and that fact that it made some slip ups, and the bene gesserit feared that he would be found out. So I think that the memory process leaks a lot of info (still quite amazing!lol) It is one area that is complicated for me. Though they are so well created, they can only be detected by those with extreme sense perception, like the bene gesserit. I think they are indeed powerful and I have often thought that the idea that machines wont be the final enemy in the 7th book, but the advanced face dancers. As the tleilaxu were apart of the scattering, and undoubtedly the tleilaxu had these advanced face dancers with them in the fringes of space. In any case, these face dancers were special, they could actually shape shift almost like in other sci fi books. Apearing to be only an anolog of a human being, featureless in order to use themselves as canvas of sorts to make anything they wanted, even manipulating certain hormones. Hope that helps somewhat, really scetchy because the last two books were very hard at times for me. (thanks for the compliment too :) )

5: what vanguard said.lol

6: no, I think it is totally literal. Remember there is a bit in God emperor where he looks past to Assyria (or babylonia, I forget) to a priest, which if it was an assyrian priest obviously dates back to anywhere roughly from 700 to 600 bc. Which goes back pretty damn far. Because of this evidance I think that he could remember any past human history. By that time, that far into the future, I think that we all would have some relation to Leto II. I think it takes some sort of relation, even if it is that distant. And by that much time, I think he could take into account almost every single memory as we are all in some way related. (whether you take into account the adam and eve ideology, or the evolutionary one, both would work).

7: Not sure on this one, but I remember reading somewhere that the bene gesserit could use processes to make people immune to sexual advances, also to block pheramones that people let off. (or could that be metal gear solid?) hehe

Hope that helped.