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[3ngel]

I'm not being simplistic with fascism

Leto II was "fascist" against his will, because fascism was the minus amongs the human-evils.

If there was no fascism, there was burocracy wich brings corruption, which brings hot-headed unsatisfacted trying to scale up the burocracy, which brings at certain point a fascist-burocracy, which brings again fascisms, which brings rebellious trying to scale up the fascismocracy, which brings fascism-killing, which brings buracracy.... and all repeats from the top...

In all this chain there is no gain of experience, only errors repeteated over and over.

In the Leto II fascism, instead there is a strong lesson : the humanity in its ENTIRY learns what does it means to be segregated, and so develop an absolutely strong sense of freedom, marked forever in its dna. Humanity in this way will learn on its own skin the meaning of enslavement, and in the future hardly will repeat the same error.

That's all the Leto II policy.

Regarding

Why does Paul only foresee one child rather than two

Because Leto II was quite on another existence plain on a universal scale.

He was protected by the view of the foreseer (first) and then even from a Kwistazhaderach foreseeing (being so more powerful than a Kwisatz).

[Egeides]

Leto II was "fascist" against his will, because fascism was the minus amongs the human-evils.

Agreed. I was being ironic with "He's fascist. Good boy."

I think that some might think that there are other paths, still to be searched like many other things. Leto II ends up as a fascist of its kind, the Duniverse being of a nature to which Leto II adapts well, showing many ideological trails throughout the litterary poetry.

The nature of this universe with its society, with your description of bureaucracy and such, is not self-regenerating enough, and has oppositions which lead to important frictions instead of "smooth as possible" coherence. The dissociation of different ideological sections brings a need for a Leto II bringing profound changes, coherence and revejuneration.

Because Leto II was quite on another existence plain on a universal scale.

He was protected by the view of the foreseer (first) and then even from a Kwistazhaderach foreseeing (being so more powerful than a Kwisatz).

I'll interpret "other existence plane" as "a further step of conceptualization" (ok?). But what do you mean when saying that, compared to Leto II, he was protected by foreseer and Haderach foreseeing?

[3ngel]

I'll interpret "other existence plane" as "a further step of conceptualization" (ok?)

Yes, that's correct.

But what do you mean when saying that, compared to Leto II, he was protected by foreseer and Haderach foreseeing?

Regarding "foreseer" i intend a being like a Guild navigator. Haderach is a further step in the foreseeing, in the sense that Haderach can see where (and when) Guild navigator can't. Leto II is a even further step in the foreseeing.

In a scale example : normal humans can be seen by a Guild navigator, Haderach can't be seen by a Guild Navigator, Leto II can't be seen by an Haderach.

[Egeides]

From where do you know that there is a kwisatz-kwisatzhaderach-leto hierarchy for Herbert? I don't remember these things that much, and couldn't point where it is discussed really. Was how this works written? Leto is "spicey" by nature thus is sorta his "own primary source [of what spice provides]" so direct access to "history/thinking/essential nexus / universal thinking way", while haderach is some form of "total human"... nope? Was there more?

As for Paul and moral now. I'm not sure what it's worth, but anyway I'll just see reactions. I think I kindda did the thinking path backwards and ended up with a new route (like when you hike and then go down a mountain... Funny method to think... anyway):

What was Leto II for Paul? Immorality, or doubtful morality, in any case imperfection of the Path to freedom/justice/Enlightenment which was to be gained by a revolution.

Thus, considering that a perfect path would mean no Leto rule, Leto in the end was not in this.

One could say that Paul was in Herbert's view of Dune (a) "blinded by moral" (include fear* as mecanism against errors or whattever), thus didnt see Leto. Or (b) Leto had further and direct conceptualization, thus no "instinctive" morals, strictly cause-effect and such. It was rather entirely by "pure rationality", then moral by definition.

Well even then, of course, Leto doesn't see everything technically, just the fundamentals. He doesn't simply predict everything of the next book.

So if it would be such, just as big picture, it would look like rationality taking the big role, moral becoming all-included within Leto's rationality as his mind encompasses more in "quantity" (more of rationally organized empirical data), then his rule for survival moral in such circumstances. Ideal-aims revolution became survival-aims empire, considered pragmatic. Moral systems gradually become one with rationality (by empiric assimilation to a more complete map) which leads to a "survival path"....... and then BG/HM and Odrade, but that's another topic :P Spice, as a drug, also has its role as bringing some given state more automatically, stably or else.

* And incorporate the BG's view on it here. Fear is here a basic protective mecanism against error, or an error of irrationality. In Duniverse it's presented an error, but some might say Paul would see the rational sense.

[TMA_1]

its not that Navigators see or dont see the Kwizats Hederach, remember it mentioned that they felt a strong central power, kinda a powerful point in the crossroads of the cosmos. The Navigators felt something powerful, felt something controlling and altering the pathways of time, and that unknown frightened them. Which is obviously why they sent envoys to Arrakis to see what the hell was going on.lol

you hit a neat point for me Egeides. Its that Paul when he becomes the "blind  prophet" he fits the mold for a great greek tragedy, in fact the entire story of Dune Messiah and Children of Dune are perfect tragedies. They have the downfall of the hero, the Deus Ex Machina story type going on through the whole thing with Paul and Leto II solving difficult problems, but with a price. Even Paul fits the mold of all the great greek tragedies of being the prophet of warning, the blind prophet speaking wisdom where there is little. awesome stuff.

[MrFlibble]

When I read the original Frank Herbert's books, I always used to think that the Butlerian Jihad was called 'butlerian' because it was a jihad against 'butlers', the servant machines (Herbert also notes that the rare machines that are still allowed in the Imperium are called 'servoqs', a word that has the same root as 'servant'). And the prequels state that the jihad was named after some Serena Butler, the initiator.

And also, from Frank herbert's books I understood that Butlerian Jihad was not at all like a war against some supercomputers, as thet prequels state, but something like Mahdi's Jihad, but the idea here was to rid the humanity of the machines that posed a possible threat, similiar to what Leto says in GEOD, that the machines increase the number of things we do without thinking, which is dangerous.

[TMA_1]

well I do agree that the Butlerian Jihad was faught for different purposes than what the prequels mention. I personally believe that the Jihad was against the plutocracy of the programmites. That a very small few had control over most of the thinking machines in the known universe. I part ways with the idea that it was the thinking machines who were in control. I believe it was a small cabal of brilliant leaders controlling the machines.

[Spectral Paladin]

Yes that's the idea, the war was fought against those who controlled the machines (and inevitably against machines themselves).

[MrFlibble]

What do you think about "Butlerian Jihad" = "Jihad against (machine) butlers"? Is it a possible interpretation? ???

I'm not a native English speaker, so I may have certain wrong impressions...

[Dante]

Even the Encyclopaedia mentioned someone after whom the Jihad was named (though it wasn't Serena, I forget who. Jehanene, or something). Being against butlers in the machine-slave terms is unlikely, in that it isn't the most obvious word to choose.

[3ngel]

My idea of the Butlerian-Jihad is this :

The jihad was not only against the thinking machines, but against the mechanical computation (computer or supercomputer). This because all the background of dune is kinda medieval ones, with the computer and technology substituted by HUMAN-computer (mentato), or super-higly specialized humans (suck).

Why the jihad taked place?

Because the fear of the thinking machines, and because (quoting Leto II) "the humans had began thinking like machines, killing the cretivity". And at this purpose Leto II talks about Ixians, the evident signs of the stall of the human creativity.

[MrFlibble]

You're right. Wide use of (thinking) machines and machine logic creates patterned behavior, and this is dangerous:

All patterned behavior tends to go unquestioned, gathering destructive momentum.

[Mihail]

Does anyone know something about Houses Taligari and Vidal? Also, what was "The Great Spice War"?

[3ngel]

Here we debate only REAL dune books, not s***ty fake ones eheh ;)

[Mihail]

"Debate"? I was just asking a question. And who cares if they were written by Frank or Brian? So the books by Brian totally screwed up Frank's legacy, but the Houses mentioned there are interesting enough.

[Spectral Paladin]

Do you find star wars interesting? We might as well discuss that then.

[Mihail]

Argh! I just want to find out if anyone knows something about Houses Taligari and Vidal!I just want to know something about them! ;)

EDIT: Also, I didn't even know that Taligari, Vidal and the Great Spice War appeared in the prequels. I was just skimming through Vanguard's list of the Houses of the Landsraad when I saw them.

[3ngel]

@Clemenza

Well, first of posting a question, assure yourself that the question does not concern the "others" than the 6 books by Frank Herbert.

Concerning the 6 books you'll find all the help you want, concerning the others, well first burn them, then forget them, then ask a question regarding the six books :D

[Mihail]

You know what? I'm just going to wait until someone answers my question; I'm not going to keep arguing about this. For Chrissake, my questions are about Houses and a war in the Dune univers, so it belongs here. I never said the prequels+books by Brian Herbert are any good(In fact, they are the opposite), I just want to know more about Houses Taligari and Vidal and the Great Spice War, because they sound slightly intersting! Jeez.

[3ngel]

@Clemenza

Now seriously :)

From you point of view your question is correct because you think that "dune universe" is all related to a thing named dune. But this is wrong 'cause the "dune universe" is all and only related to the 6 books written by Frank Herbert.

Why this? Because the 6 books form a coeherent system that has is life and mechanism in itself.

Why all the others books are shits (and in this i related to your spice war too)? Because the Brainfucked Herbert, has written so many false things and non-coherent thing in his books pretending they would be prequels or expansion of the six books, but instead they say so much incoherence you can't imagine.

This is why you'll not find help to your question easily. Thanks to those s***ty books, an user read them, then read the 6 books and keep questioning over and over : but why in the prequels its said so, and in the 6 book it's said all the opposite? And so on...

I hope you've done the point.

[Mihail]

I understand what you're saying, but even if you don't have any info about aforementioned Houses and war, that doesn't mean everyone else also doesn't. So my question still stands. I don't care if Brian's Dune universe contradicts Frank's Dune universe , I just want to know something about these Houses and war. I agree that Brian's universe is badly planned out and I have despised it since I read Butlerian Jihad(The only book of the prequels that I have read).

[Dante]

The Board title is 'Duniverse.' This can be the original six books, but in this context it also extends to the movie, miniseries, various board and card games, essays, theories, etc. This includes the prequels. They may not be canon, they may not be detailed, they may read like a delirious baboon writing in the mud with his rear. But they are part of the Duniverse nevertheless.

(Spoilers ahead, I suppose)

House Vidal does not have much detail on it, but may or may not be Ecaz under another name (see Vanguard's entry). It appeared in House Atreides as living on Ecaz, and I don't think was mentioned after that.

House Taligari appeared in House Corrino, and was created pretty much to show how ruthless the Emperor was. It's sole purpose in the plot was to be almost destroyed, much like the Richesian false moon, Corona. Which leads neatly on to...

The Great Spice War. When Shaddam ordered the Tleilaxu to find a substitute for melange, he knew that he would have to have sole control over it. His power would have been guaranteed, supposedly. But if any houses possessed stockpiles of spice, they would be able to hold out for long enough to resist him, possibly band enough houses together and overthrow him. So he set about crushing any and all houses with suspected stockpiles. Taligari was one of them.

Spoilers over. Questions more or less answered. Be happy and quit with the snobbery.

[Mihail]

Thanks, Dante. :)

[Cpt. Invictus]

Using only Frank Herbert's original six books, were there any concrete examples of how much destructive force was released when a lasgun interacted with a "personal" shield?

[MauDib]

All that FH said about lasgun/shield interaction is that it was equal to a small nuclear explosion.