utterly useless units that need to be patched

[GUNWOUNDS]

Saboteurs need stealth by default too

no that would be unfair... seeing as how it only takes two saboteurs to destroy every building (except MCV) .

If saboteurs could cloak .. everyone would be using them... it would be like cheap IX bombs....

I think the saboteurs need to be like the ones in C&C Generals ... fast and heavily armored...cause you can actually hit your target with those.

Also ordos saboteurs slow down when injured.. THAT needs to be removed as well as them getting armor/speed increase.

Cloaking? naaaaaa

[Kyle]

ornis are cheaper than gunships, i think...and if you can build up a mass load of ornis...they're very effective...unless the enemy has lots of AA units...then they're no use at all

as for sonic tanks...as long as you spread them way out at the front of your army...they rock...but in big groups...they just blow each other up...have you ever had a third rank sonic tank...they become invincible...it rocks...

contaminators...um...well...ok yeah they suck...

guild makers...ok...as long as you have a bunch of tanks with em...

anyways those are just my opinions on the units

[Navaros]

ornis are cheaper than gunships, i think...and if you can build up a mass load of ornis...they're very effective...unless the enemy has lots of AA units...then they're no use at all

as for sonic tanks...as long as you spread them way out at the front of your army...they rock...but in big groups...they just blow each other up...have you ever had a third rank sonic tank...they become invincible...it rocks...

contaminators...um...well...ok yeah they suck...

guild makers...ok...as long as you have a bunch of tanks with em...

anyways those are just my opinions on the units

any enemy that doesn't have a lot of AA will be dead vs. any competent player long before the competent player has ANY reason at all to build a "mass of Ornis".

[Kyle]

i thought level 3 sonics were invincible?...i had one once and it couldn't be damaged...i don't know...it may have been in a mod that i was playing...but i really thought level 3 sonics were invincible...my mistake

[SpiceGuid]

You have to take into account the fact that ornis, saboteurs and sonic tanks are legacy units that were already present in DuneII and Dune2000 games and are close to the heart of many fans.

So may be they were included because respect of legacy commanded they should be, but in the same time the gameplay had to change so that we don't play the same RTS and build the same units again and again.

May be these units deserve to be present so that Dune2000 fans enjoy campaigns in 3D, yet do not deserve to be more effective in multiplayer.

However sure, contaminators are incredibly crappy and should have been balanced, otherwise Tleilaxu is a fake House.

[Navaros]

good points - although i'd think that the "legacy" units should be TOUGHEST of all - instead of being useless.

[SpiceGuid]

that would be too much conservative, legacy units are there to ease the transition.

but no excuse for contaminators, they should be radically more efficient.

[Chris Longpre]

Umm..somewhere in this thread.. there is an assumption that all the units were created for multiplayer games.

Some units were created for either story or campaign gameplay.  Others for multiplayer balance.  And still others just for the tapestry of the Dune world (i.e. Fremen Riders).  Hopefully there were (and still are) many viable strategies for winning in campaign & multiplayer, based upon your sub-houses, and unit choices.  That is what it is all about.

Agreed that after 3 years of playing, you all have probably found the exact formula/combination that works for you and/or most players.  :)

Oh.. Hi all! :)

--Chris

[GUNWOUNDS]

Umm..somewhere in this thread.. there is an assumption that all the units were created for multiplayer games.

Some units were created for either story or campaign gameplay.

[alchemi2]

Chirs !! hey !!... EXPLAIN the contaminator to us plz !!!!

What is it for ?

[Chris Longpre]

The Contaminator was created to fill a couple of design needs.  Besides needing a cool unit for the Tleixu flesh vats to produce, we wanted to add unique units with unique strategies.  (We did not succeed on every unit :)  We really liked the idea of a viral attack, or a unit that propogated like a virus.  That idea became the genesis for both the Leech & the Contaminator.  Once converts infantry, the other machines.  Both are organic technologies, and its a rather organic attack form, so it fit the Tleixu ethos perfectly.

In the early versions, both units were so deadly, they would quickly overwelm & dominate any opponant. (Talk about a Zerg attack!)  So, they had to be nerf'd.  In the end, we took a tad too much sting out of them.. but they are annoying as hell <evil grin>.

When the Contaminators kill too quickly, they become very difficult to defeat.  Also, their original spawn time was faster.. so when the enemy solidier died, you had another Contaminator in less than a second.  :)  They also walked faster initially.. he he.. again a 10 contaminator Zerg attack became lethal if you had any amount of infantry around.

I used the Leeches more than the Contaminators.... and nowadays, I'd try them inside an Ordos APC, and dump them in the middle of a base, or in the middle of an infantry group.

--Chris

[GUNWOUNDS]

The Contaminator was created to fill a couple of design needs.

[alchemi2]

an apc trying to deploy in a group of inf would be dead before it could disembark the inf tilex realy do need speeding up.

[Chris Longpre]

True on the deploy & speeding up.

You could play with the rules file and speed up the contaminator's movement.  If you can find the animation control file for them, speed up their 'being spawned from the dead' animation, and then make their attack +1 point of damage or so..

Then give them a spin, a la zerg style.  Buzzsaws, snipers, etc. will not be able to keep up... may be the start of a fun mod though...

--Chris

[Megashrap]

I was messing around with em last night in a skirmish tryin to mass them mixed in with inf to see what they would do against just a weak AI set, and for the most part they all just die off fast when they get within gun range of inf. of any kind. However I was kinda shocked at how leaches in mass (20) or so could take out a building so fast. That kinda surprised me but then again I hardly ever make either of the 2 in real games.

[GUNWOUNDS]

hehe maybe a new challenge would be to try to beat 7 computers with only leeches and contaminators..... hehe would be interesting.

[clam74]

i remember emprworm using leeches quite often and he got pretty good at it 2 , but contaminators really do suck and shoulda been altered in some way.

[darkd3th]

Leaches are very good , in a pile of dust gas and a few lasers . Then just go into a spice feild and blast away . THoguh i prefer my fremen and sards .

[KALONY]

yeah thats the problem with the leeches....when u choose them, u loose frems or sards as sub

KALONY

[Infantryman17]

Atriedes should have air supriority not harks the orni does way 2 little damage so you should build 4 at least and they are way too expansive.. sonic tanks are good.. the real useless units i think are sand bikes i dont build em as for apc

[KALONY]

i promise u, online u will need bikes

KALONY

[erjin999]

Davis, why do you not come online and see these things in action, rather then talk about them when you have not experienced online play ?

The gayme is very very different online. Go online, play, see, then comment. It will give you a better idea of why these people say what they say.

[Infantryman17]

working on it dont worry you  can kick my ass soon :P

[Dunenewt]

Shame that a lot of the unused units were never...used, for want of a better word.

[cyberotter]

emperor was one of the last rts intended for single player first multiplayer second, that should solve everything here. ( the person already said why they were how they were because of single player )