The Israeli- Palestinian conflict

[Mister.G]

Egeides :

If you think life in Israel are so simple come and live here u will see the real truth.

[Egeides]

Simple? I never talked about simple. But a path on this way is the only way I see. Don't you believe that to permit torture, shooting on people throwing ROCKS, shooting on sight, take their houses is BRINGING more opposition?

About France being "biased so we can't listen to them", well everyone is "biased". People that have a bias only brings us to EXPECT something from them, but we can break the expectancy by going to facts. Otherwise, you are all biased because you are from Israel, so I can't listen to you........... ??? It's exactly your words' consequences.

[Acriku]

I think Israelians become more authoritative on this subject, since they are in the middle of it all, than the French Egeides.

[Noam]

Nobody is permitting torture, the orders are to shoot only when there is no other way, and who is exactly taking their houses? I'd really love to see where you've god these ideas from. Israel? Shooting on sight? Pure propoganda. These things happened only once or twice in the history of Israel. If we really shot on sight as you are suggesting there would be tens of thousands of Palestinian casualties. Did you know that we let the Palestinians work in Israel?

Accept what I say here as truth. We are in a war, and in war ugly things happen, yet in this particular case they happen really, really rarely. When we assaulted Jenin, Arafat interviewed to the entire world reporting about a massacare and thousands of dead people. When the red cross counted the bodies, it discovered that in this 'massacare' there were 81 casualties. Not 81 thousand, just 81. Do you see the propoganda we've been talking about?

[Egeides]

The source of a great part of these ideas is Israel's journalists (living there, Jews), reported by Noam Chomsky in the book Fateful Triangle. I do not deny that some people are pushing agendas or do propaganda, on both sides.

I should mention that when the press was creating too much opposition to the government's plans, a Canadian (linked to Israel since he's Jew) bought the main journalistic source of opposition: he fired all those who were creating trouble as "reorganization". These journalists didn't disapeared. If I can get my book back, I'll be able to say you which newspaper exactly.

EdricO: Of course they are a source!! I was only answering to someone saying that anyone being in a position of advantage or disadvantage is de facto unreliable. It's not because you expect someone to have a bias that he'll have one.

It's weird like those on the field will be said "you're biased, you're on the field" while those not on the field will be answered "you can't know, you don't live it". So you can say about anyone "don't listen to him, he's a human unable to say something true".

[Egeides]

You want some sources? Which part of this did you got in your newspapers (notice that Canadians didn't got alot neither):

- Children in prison, no trial, Arabs beaten by police:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150582000

- About diplomatical agreements where you believe your state lets alot to Palestine, here's Oslo II:

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/jan96chomsky.htm

- Saying that Israel was pacific during the Oslo accord is false, use of torture, stealing houses:

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm

I suspect that the reason why you believe your state is okay is like in many other cases where the information didn't passed. What is false in all this?

[Gobalopper]

I think the biggest problem comes from the Palenstinian side. Regardless of what either side does it is in Israel interest to have peace whereas the current Palesitinian leadership simply looks to destroy Israel. They brainwash the children in school and on television to follow their cause, I don't see those same accusations being labeled on Israel.

After looking at someone like Arafat, who has millions of dollars, it makes me wonder why you blaim poor the living conditions on just the Israeli's? There is never going to be peace unless the terrorist groups controlling the Palestinian cause are either destroyed or disbanded. I don't see how you can deny this Egeides. Show me proof that the people in charge of the Palenstinian cause are actively working for peace because I haven't seen it. The Israeli's are trying to stop terrorism, their methods may not always be perfect but no country is.

[Egeides]

I don't believe that Israel's government is trying to stop terrorism more than the other side is. I don't believe neither that Palestine is full of white angels or anything. But Israel's answer, because of the weapons and American they have, is doing even worst that is done to them. They're the one trying to profit from the war. And they do not say to their population all they do.

I could reverse what you said in fact... Medias are "brainwashing" (I'd say disinform or lying) to the Israelis, the political direction wants expansion, they're rich, etc etc

Really, why do they torture, keep without trial, emprison children, shoot people throwing rocks, stop kids from going to school, destroy houses from the moment they get casus belli, take people's houses after sayng it's "for archeological researches" and so on? It's not only about the political direction being right, it's about being HONEST. Just look at the articles above about Oslo, it gives some doubts :-X

[Gobalopper]

They aren't even trying to stop terrorism Egeides, they're promoting it.

[Egeides]

Both sides are! And at the same time, both sides also have some factions doing the opposite...

On one side, we have some people bombing themselves because other methods didn't worked (when Israel was just taking houses during Oslo). On the other side, we have a government taking houses, torturing, and so on. They are both in reaction to eachother. Israel does alot more damage to Palestinian civilians and are the one gaining territory and so on though...

[Gobalopper]

I guess we have a different idea of terrorism then.

Egeides think of it this way.

If Israel stopped doing what you call terrorism would the Palestinians stop what I call terrorism? No.

If Palestinians stopped what I called terrorism would Israel stop what you call terrorism? Yes.

[Egeides]

"If Palestinians stopped what I called terrorism would Israel stop what you call terrorism?"

No. The Israeli leaders are searching a casus belli, as France was searching for Algeria and Tunisia. Of course Tunisia and Algeria brang some trouble.... but who was the source of trouble?... What France did was colonialism anyway even if it found a casus belli each time.

Before, Palestinians were not doing what they are doing now against Israeli. It went mad when Israeli started doing even worst. Israel is killing alot more civilians than the extremists and is expecting to always have a casus belli because she fueled terrorists: even if Israel would stop, they wouldn't believe in Israel.

If Israeli leaders were honnest in their intentions, they would be careful not to torture, and do all what I mentioned. They have no intention to stop war: it's what they wish to pursue their agenda (Arabs are blocking it). All this doesn't justify what's against civilians (not terrorists), done for profit (not against terrorists) or exagerating (torture, children in prison...). No wonder the consequence was extremists (which came AFTER what Israel did).

[lowzeewee]

The truth is,the palestinians are RETALIATING,get the meaning of that word,striking back when someone strikes you first. :)

[Egeides]

Who's retaliating to who? They BOTH say they are. Israel, even in time of "peace" was taking territory and pushing its agenda. Also, a retaliation that implies to cause 2X to 3X more death than you received and incredibly more destruction, not counting prifitting of the occasion to take property, is not easily called a retaliation.

Like in Algeria: were French retaliating against Algerians, as France was saying during colonialism? Exact same situation with same inner working.

Now we lost the main elements on page 2 so here's again:

- Children in prison, no trial, Arabs beaten by police:

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150582000

- About diplomatical agreements where you believe your state lets alot to Palestine, here's Oslo II:

http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/jan96chomsky.htm

- Saying that Israel was pacific during the Oslo accord is false, use of torture, stealing houses:

http://www.zmag.org/meastwatch/israeleth1.htm

I suspect that the reason why Israelites believe their state is okay is like in many other cases where the information didn't passed. What is false in all this?

[lowzeewee]

Since Israel invaded them and took land,they are at the wrong as there is no need to go into Palestine,just defend themselves...

[Egeides]

We're saying the same thing lowzeewee :D

[alchemi2]

trouble is terroist hide in amongst the people so it hard to pick out only the as sua is finding in iraq more troops die after army defeated than in war.

a country cant fight a war like that without hurting innocents.

look at english irish conflict very hard for solidgers to fight that kind of battle without kill civillians.

the whole point of terroism is to make everyone nervous cause max innocent death.

they would lose a stand up fight but you cant win this kind of war it is sad that innocents die but isreal has right to defend it self.

As stated earlier usa reaction to terroism simple go blow crap out of country so if palasitine attack us at home army would cream them.

[lowzeewee]

But the trouble is Israel can't end its bloodlust. ;)

[Noam]

Now you're being pathetic. Note that if the Israelis "couldn't stop their bloodlust" or "were just looking for a casus belli", there wouldn't be Palestinians at all by now. There is a big hole in the ground where Afghanistan used to be once, and you let out no word about it, but when Israel kills terrorists? Woohoo, big conspiracy. Looking for casus belli. You are pathetic. Stop reading propaganda materials (such as your Noam Chomski book) and believing weird conspiracy theories. The fact is that Israel wants to get to peace and does everything it could to get this, while the Palestinians do the opposite.

If you still rather believe propaganda over believing me, this is where the discussion ends. You go your way, and I go mine, and hopefully our ways won't cross ever again.

Have a good day.

PS: Stop reading propaganda. It's bad for your health.

[Mister.G]

They aren't even trying to stop terrorism Egeides, they're promoting it.

who did you mean ?

The Israelis ? if yes you are wrong we are the good guys that try to make peace with the palestines that dont behave like humans.

I don't believe that Israel's government is trying to stop terrorism more than the other side is. I don't believe neither that Palestine is full of white angels or anything. But Israel's answer, because of the weapons and American they have, is doing even worst that is done to them. They're the one trying to profit from the war. And they do not say to their population all they do.

I could reverse what you said in fact... Medias are "brainwashing" (I'd say disinform or lying) to the Israelis, the political direction wants expansion, they're rich, etc etc

Really, why do they torture, keep without trial, emprison children, shoot people throwing rocks, stop kids from going to school, destroy houses from the moment they get casus belli, take people's houses after sayng it's "for archeological researches" and so on? It's not only about the political direction being right, it's about being HONEST. Just look at the articles above about Oslo, it gives some doubts :-X

We try to stop terror but we cant because the fanatics of the palestines they want to destroy Israel at any cost and they dont care about us.

btw Ege do u want real sources ?

come to Israel you will see the real source dont check in sites that against Israel, they distort the things in a way that it will look like we are the one to blame.

But the trouble is Israel can't end its bloodlust. ;)

I dont see anything funny about blood.Shame on you!

[Gobalopper]

Here are some links I heard about on the radio the other day:

Palestinian Media Watch - has some interesting videos taken from Plaestinian TV

Myths & Facts Online: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict - talks about some myths and the facts behind the conflict

[Nyarlathotep]

The Israelis ? if yes you are wrong we are the good guys that try to make peace with the palestines that dont behave like humans.

LOL, that's the funniest statement ever. The Israeli government aren't angels so to speak (neither are the plastinian, don't get me wrong).

This is exactly the attitude why this situation doesn't get resolved. Your government isn't trying to make peace. Both parties seem to uphold the situation as it is.

[leo]

The Israelis ? if yes you are wrong we are the good guys that try to make peace with the palestines that dont behave like humans.

LOL, that's the funniest statement ever. The Israeli government aren't angels so to speak (neither are the plastinian, don't get me wrong).

This is exactly the attitude why this situation doesn't get resolved. Your government isn't trying to make peace. Both parties seem to uphold the situation as it is.

Read the post i wrote in response to edric o:

We are opposing a Palestinian state? Man, refresh your mind. Last time I checked we were the first to offer one and Arafat was the one who opposed. Israeli former PM- Barak offered the Palestinians at Camp David more than they could ever imagine. But he was rejected. And you know why? Cause Arafat can never accept such a move. The majority wants ALL Israel. If he would accept it will be immediately understood as a weakens and he would be recognized as a surrender. The second he will do that he is gonna be lynched by a well-crowded mass of raging Palestinians.

Don’t you dare blaming Israel in the failure of negotiation. After all we are the one who push towards peace and we are the one with the power and the land. But still we offer way too much. Show me one county willing to sacrifice its own capital city. And especially a city like Jerusalem which is the heart, hope and soul of every Jew.

BTW, it was already told but I see u didn't read it. Israel did all what it was obliged to In Oslo agreements while the Palestinians did exactly the opposite. What do u think we win from this blood ship? More babies dead? The collapse of our economy? A bad international cover?

[alchemi2]

Hey GUYs ease up its ok for us armchair philosiphers but leo got live there.

And all you Americans and Brits should sympathise with his situation. if you had lost family, friends and neighbours to stupid attacks on innocents you too would be passionate to defend your home.

Remember terrorist target the innocent majority most of the time cafes, restaurants, hospitals etc at least the Isreals try to target enemy military were possible but remember as Saddam did in Iraq, puts military in schools, hospital, etc to get the support of liberals in the west and kids get rigged with bombs.

I remember a story my former manager told me about Iran Iraq war. he was a sargent in Iranian army then. all there mine detecting equipment was broken or destroyed, so they when to local villages and round up live stock to drive through mine field to clear path for attack. Once first mines set off it scatters and they can't them to go way commander wants. Next day commander goes to village schools and get all kids aged 5 to 9 and takes to mosque. all get blessed and given blanket to wrap round self.

They then get these kids to run in line through mines! telling them they will go to better life with allah.

These kids do it few turn back but shot so rest run through many die but path is clear for attack.

My boss said he still have nightmares about that shortly after he desert and escape here. :'(

Thats the sort of fanatisicum Isreal is up against and you say they should stop. Sure they love to, bet if they laid down their arms and surrender entire country to palestine with only proviso that they can stay and coexist with the palestinians under their governace they would all be dead within the month. >:(

[leo]

The truth is,the palestinians are RETALIATING,get the meaning of that word,striking back when someone strikes you first. :)

Retaliating? Man that’s the dumbest thing I ever heard! Tell me frequently, do u know just a bit the history of this region? They retaliate after what? After we blow their bus full of innocent people? After we lynch their citizens who accidentally got to the wrong place? After we shoot on innocent cars? After we are attacking their country cause we can’t accept their existence?

Let me give a small History lesson. In 1947 the UN decides to divide this place into 2 countries- a Jewish state which got the smallest territory and a Palestinian one which got the vast of the land. The Jews living here accepted it with great happiness (although we got a very small piece of the land- which even didn’t include any of our holy places), in the Palestinian side there was no other option than only a Palestinian state over all Israel (it means they didn’t accept it, though’ they got much more than we did). The Palestinians living in Israel started murdering Jews and blocking any supplies sent to the Jewish cities. After few months (actually the day when the Jewish state “eretz Israel” was officially announced 6 Arabian countries attacked us from all sides (with the support of another 5).

After the 6 days war Israel occupied the Gaza strip and the west bank from the EGYPTIAN AND THE JORDANS. On these territories Palestinians were living. And then soon enough the terror groups arisen and started murdering Jews with cold blood (the goal of course is to kill the Jews everywhere, so Jews actually got prosecuted not only in Israel). They started bombing our busses, hijacking planes, taking hostages and so on.

As decided in the UN agreement, Israel offered the Palestinians their land back (we were still terrorized) but guess what? Apparently they can’t live side by side with us. Btw, did you know that it was Israel who saved Arafat’s ass and brought him to the so-called territories?