Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne

[lowzeewee]

The fight between mannoroth and hellscream,the arthas slaying his father and the thrall vision movies looks realistic and good enough,by LotR standards.

[Terror]

1. The blizzard movies are far from cheap, almost half of the warcraft 3 team worked on the movies only i think. It took a huge amount of time. And they are brilliantly made, and unlike the ingame graphics, they do not look cartoonish

2. What is art anyway? Who has the right to define art? Should i say that picasso was an artist? Some would say yes, I would say he was a worthless painter, and his art was horrible. I think everything can be an art. Fighting (martial arts duh ;) ) making games, doing whatever job you do.

[Anathema]

Wrong: RA1 is the best selling RTS ever, and all the C&C's have sold more copies than their Blizzard counterparts. (C&C more than War1, RA more than SC or War2, Generals will probably be more than War3 - I know Ren has.)

Hmm....

Actually, the 8 million number is for the entire C&C franchise, includeding map packs, war packs, etc. from C&C1 thru RA2:YR. That said, RA1 was the single best selling RTS that Westwood has done.

That said...

Or perhaps they could use a combination of Real Actors and digitized effects, like in real movies. StarCraft/WarCraft3's movies look so cartoonish.

The movies of StarCraft original were some of the best ever. They're cartoonish, but fine enough and some of them were very funny. BW's movie scenes is another story though.

WC3's movies were done very neatly. Obviously the guys who made it were experts. But if you can do a better job, why don't you show us?

[Cyborg]

But don't forget that something is craft and something is art.

[Terror]

But don't forget that something is craft and something is art.

perhaps, but then again, can you tell me what is the real difference between craft and art? Do you consider painters artists or craftsmen then?

[lowzeewee]

Literally,ingame movies ARE art.Craft is making something out of materials. ;D

[Cyborg]

But don't forget that something is craft and something is art.

perhaps, but then again, can you tell me what is the real difference between craft and art? Do you consider painters artists or craftsmen then?

Would a few examples do?

Art: To make a 3d movie

Craft: To make casual furnitures

You can say that making furnitures is art, but personally, I count that as crafting.

[lowzeewee]

This is getting like a debate.I generally think that making 3d movies is an art but not a craft as it sounds weird to call making 3d movies a craft.This seems weird.

Motion:Making a 3d movie is both an art and a craft

Proposition:Flameweaver

Opposition:Cyborg

Begin. :D

[Cyborg]

Of course making a 3d movie is not a craft.

Neither is carving a car out of a piece of wood.

Craft is building a house following the drawing, and anything you don't do with your own imagination.

[Terror]

that is so wrong. When you use craft, you too use your imagination. Generally craft is a word used in jobs where people make things with their hands. Like making wooden shoes. It became a craft, experienced people who did it all on feeling, instead of following standard directions

[Apollyon]

A craft is in itself an art. They are synonomous.

[Cyborg]

But I would say that when crafting something, it becomes useful, and when making art, it pleases the eye, and maybe creates some joy too.

[Terror]

they are indeed 2 different terms, and i also use them different. But the problem is that i cannot define the difference between these two words

[Edric O]

Hmmm, my mission was forgotten quite fast... :-

I was really expecting feedback of some sort...

[Cyborg]

RA=8 million, SC=7 million.

Hmm...

The whole C&C series of games has sold 13.5 million copies.

Then the other games must have been quite unpopular compared. ???

There's 5.5 million copies left for the other c&c games

*ADDED*

Ok, hehe, it seems like those numbers were from 2000.

But they're at least official :P

[Navaros]

oh my f***KinG goodness!

i just installed RoC 1.11 the other day and they did the following thing to TFT too!

it now takes 5 seconds for a TP to activate once your perform the action!

and second heros do not get a TP!

this is because "Blizzard does not want you to be able to run away from battle". of course, the literal translation of that is: "Blizzard wants WarCraft 3 to maintain it's "most babyish RTS of all-time" reputation and ensure the winner is always determined by sheer dumb luck instead of strategy or skill. This way, *EVERYONE* can win so our game will be popular since even people with no skill whatsoever will win as many games as those with true RTS skill."

now there is *really* no reason to play War3. as if it wasn't a babyish POS before - this *REALLY* makes it the most worthless babyish POS simulation of "Teletubbies meets Tiddley-winks" in the history of RTS gaming.

[Khan]

Hmmm, my mission was forgotten quite fast... :-

I was really expecting feedback of some sort...

The Naga need more heroes, and something that makes them stand out as a race that can always be used, not just swimming.

[Terror]

oh my f***KinG goodness!

i just installed RoC 1.11 the other day and they did the following thing to TFT too!

it now takes 5 seconds for a TP to activate once your perform the action!

and second heros do not get a TP!

this is because "Blizzard does not want you to be able to run away from battle". of course, the literal translation of that is: "Blizzard wants WarCraft 3 to maintain it's "most babyish RTS of all-time" reputation and ensure the winner is always determined by sheer dumb luck instead of strategy or skill. This way, *EVERYONE* can win so our game will be popular since even people with no skill whatsoever will win as many games as those with true RTS skill."

now there is *really* no reason to play War3. as if it wasn't a babyish POS before - this *REALLY* makes it the most worthless babyish POS simulation of "Teletubbies meets Tiddley-winks" in the history of RTS gaming.

wtf? what has the loss of scrolls of townportals to your 2nd hero and the 5 second delay to do with babyish. There is absolutely no connection. I find your post irrelevant, no one realy wanted to read that anyway, so why did you post it?

[Navaros]

wtf? what has the loss of scrolls of townportals to your 2nd hero and the 5 second delay to do with babyish. There is absolutely no connection. I find your post irrelevant, no one realy wanted to read that anyway, so why did you post it?

there is every connection. before this change, War3 and TFT were *already* games of sheer dumb luck. no viable means of scouting results in almost every game being resolved simply based on sheer dumb luck.

the implementation of this TP delay i am talking about was made for TFT (and also implemented in RoC) so it has every relevance to this thread.

what it has to do with "babyish" is that TPing away when your army happens to run across enemies that you can't kill is a viable strat which takes skill and thought to do. newbies don't do it, only smart, skilled RTS players do. this is *ESPECIALLY FUNDAMENTALLY NECESSARY FOR RT PLAYERS*! chances are, in half the RT games you ever play in, your allies will *NOT* stick together with you whereas the enemy team *WILL*, which results in your guranteed death since in WarCraft 3; whoever has one more unit than the other guy will almost always win.

Being able to TP out in situations like this was an act of skill and strategy.

Blizzard figured "we have a lot of newbie whiners who are complaining that people are using *STRATEGIES* against them. this is frustrating our baby audience, so let's take away the last bastion of strategy left in WarCraft 3, and place a 5 second delay in TPing. heck, take away the second hero's TP too. that ought to appease our kiddy audience and ensure that this game never involves any skill or strategy whatsoever! everyone has an equal chance to win, so everyone is happy!"

flameweaver if you or anyone else is too naive to understand what a horribly disgusting impact this change has on WarCraft 3 gameplay, then it's only honest to say that you have no comprehension of what makes for a good *STRATEGY* game. which is not surprising, because most WarCraft 3 players don't either. they just enjoy the game because they have an equal chance of winning vs. anyone else since WarCraft 3 's Winner is always determined by sheer dumb luck and nothing else, *ESPECIALLY* now with these ludicrous TP delays

now i'm *REALLY* done with WarCraft 3. i'm not gonna play it any more even though it's alive. to play such a babyish POS would shame-me as a good RTS player

[Razorox]

The only real reason you never liked it is because you suck at it. That is the truth and you can try and cover it up any way you like, but we can all see right through you nav. And you are an uber noob and a half...

[d3m0nger]

TillerMaN interview (currently the best player In warcraft, also known as freemason and 4K.TillerMaN.)

They also changed Town Portal. A lot of players were tending to rely on these very, very heavily. Because second and third heroes started with Town Portals, players could use these extra Portals to save any expansion or escape from any losing battles. Now, only your first hero starts with a Town Portal scroll. Blizzard also extended the casting time for the Town Portal to five seconds, so it doesn't open right away anymore. That is a big, big change. I actually experienced it last night. I had 10 Archers and I was getting hurt. I tried to Portal out. But because of the change to Town Portal, by the time the Portal did open, all my units were dead. That would never happen in Reign in Chaos. That is a huge change people will have to deal with.

Oh and nav, TillerMan and His clan that are currently Dominating UT2K3/warcraft/Cs/SoF2/ And some other games, Are not Baby gamers :P

Blizzard changed this because to many players were tending to rely on their Tp's.

[Edric O]

The Naga need more heroes, and something that makes them stand out as a race that can always be used, not just swimming.

Well, this map is just for fun - I never intended it to be balanced. ;)

(I think the Naga are more powerful than any of the other races)

What I wanted to do was to keep the Naga as close as possible to the way they are in the campaign missions.

[Navaros]

TillerMaN interview (currently the best player In warcraft, also known as freemason and 4K.TillerMaN.)

They also changed Town Portal. A lot of players were tending to rely on these very, very heavily. Because second and third heroes started with Town Portals, players could use these extra Portals to save any expansion or escape from any losing battles. Now, only your first hero starts with a Town Portal scroll. Blizzard also extended the casting time for the Town Portal to five seconds, so it doesn't open right away anymore. That is a big, big change. I actually experienced it last night. I had 10 Archers and I was getting hurt. I tried to Portal out. But because of the change to Town Portal, by the time the Portal did open, all my units were dead. That would never happen in Reign in Chaos. That is a huge change people will have to deal with.

Thanks for proving my point. One of the very best players in War3 is here confirming that TPing Out is an excellent strat that he uses all the time; as all elite players would.

Because Blizzard wanted to take every last bit of strategy out of the game so as War3 is now *exclusively* a game of sheer dumb luck (they went from around 80% to 100% with this TP nerfing), they put in the TP delay and took away second Hero TP's. There is *NO* exscuse for Blizzard doing this at all.

Tillerman is right that people will have to deal with the change. Blizzard forced this complete-babyification of War3 down every BNET players' throat. I will deal with it by never playing the babyish farce of an "RTS" known was "WarCraft 3" again. Most people with real RTS skill will do the same.

btw you are leaving out some important points about Tillerman. he would never bad-mouth Blizzard or War3 because:

1. Blizzard sponsors him in Tournaments, and lets Tillerman pick his own competition. Then Tillerman wins and gets $5,000 for beating the competition that he personally hand-picked

2. Tillerman uses his site to "train people in WarCraft 3, for only $30 an hour" ROFL. Paypal only!

3. Tillerman tries to sell his WarCraft 3 accounts on his website for upwards of $1000 each

4. Tillerman sells "action cards" of himself on his website

...so you see, no matter how horribly babyish and shameful War3 is to the concept of "Strategy", Tillerman would never bad-mouth it because that would be bad for business. although he wasn't exactly praising the change in your quoted text.

i'd like you to quote the best player in another, real RTS and see what he'd have to say about the same subject (if you know of any)

[Cyborg]

Navaros, just because you cannot just flee from a battle( something you must do in every battle since you're so mad about it :P), it doesn't make the game more babyish.

You just have to plan 5 seconds ahead of time. And you can always run from battle by foot, although you get some casualties that way.

The game isn't that fun if everyone just teleports away from battle once they see they're going to loose.

Blizzard did a great job making a 5 second delay on the teleport, YAY!

I've enjoyed it on battle.net, when the armies I fought lost some extra men upon fleeing.

[d3m0nger]

...so you see, no matter how horribly babyish and shameful War3 is to the concept of "Strategy", Tillerman would never bad-mouth it because that would be bad for business. although he wasn't exactly praising the change in your quoted text.

i'd like you to quote the best player in another, real RTS and see what he'd have to say about the same subject (if you know of any)

I don't think TillerMaN cares about the 5000$ besides that, He gets it anyway because it was in the contract he signed When he won The warcraft 3 Beta tournament. I'll ask tillerman in private What he really thinks about this, he'd prolly say the same thing again.

Alot of players scroll abused, They put 6 potions on DH and Kotg, and then they just ran into the enemies base and Kill everything and Tp away when the potions starting to run out. This happend alot so Blizzard Changed a few things. I like the fact that they changed the TP because I am a skilled player, and I usually win face to face battles, So if he desides to TP away I can kill a few of his remaining units.

They also changed another thing which I Found out today: When a hero is at level 5, No matter How many creeps you kill, the hero's experians won't get any larger, Only by killing some of your enemy's units or Tomes of experians Will make his experians grow.

Unfortunately, I don't Know any Great RTS gamers besides the ones Sponsored by Blizzard entertainment and Intel.

greets

av.