Tezcatlipoca

Hmm. I didn't even notice that. I couldn't tell you why the exporter generated those extra "dummy" pages. The end of the text is on page 58, so you've read the whole thing. You were asking about how a House might go about enforcing justice in the general population earlier. I've given it a bit of thought, but I'm not sure I have much creative insight in that department that could add to the discussion. I suppose that I would imagine most of the security is done on a "guilty without a chance to be proven innocent" in most situations, and maybe a chance to prove innocent in some. If the population can't be a viable danger to the ruling cast, there's no need to placate them with a fair judicial system. It would be easier to simply rule by fear of example most of the time. As a result, most places wouldn't necessarily need a full judicial system, or even separate police units. The massive spy network would work as the first line of defense, acting as a "secret police" force. Where necessary, the "big guns" of the military could be called in for extermination actions. Otherwise, a few abductions and arrests would usually take care of any situation. After 10,000 years of not being able to right such wrongs, the population would probably be pretty complacent. Especially if they're given a nice bland (engineered) peaceful religion as they have through the Orange Catholic Bible (example of the stagnation even in this part of the Imperium's lives) to keep them faithful that salvation comes at the end. The source material provides very little evidence, except what we know of Salus Secundus and what we might creatively infer about how the Harkonnen handle justice (through vague references by the Atreides' lieutenants like Gurney that were imprisoned by them). Perhaps the best bet would be to find examples of how justice was handled historically in Autocratic regimes with hard caste systems. That might get us a bit further. Another thought just occurred to me, that looking specifically at feudal societies might bear some fruit in this area. The Dune Imperium could probably be considered feudal, although at the very top we have some balance of power between the Emperor, Landsraad and Guild. Once we get into a fife, (I'm assuming) the ruler is absolute as long as the Imperial rules aren't broken. Likely, in such a caste system, there would be a level of administrators granted to administrating various regions and provinces. Each of those would doll out power to those in a lower administrative caste as well. Down and down this would go until you get to local thuggaries who enforce "law" on their immediate people (who, because of the division of power in a caste system would now qualify as a lower subservient caste). If the system is structured somewhat like this, there wouldn't be any need to have a planetary policing force, and the spy system would just need to make sure the tree of administration is being properly maintained. The military would only need to intervene if a local authority figure decided to try to grab too much power, or caused too much economic disruption as a result of his or her policies.

Where the length of the knives are concerned, the novel is pretty explicit. The Kindjals, which are described with frequent use both by the nobility and infantry, are 20cm long. So are the crysknives. They are referred to both as knives and swords, providing ambiguity as to the length of other swords that have no further description. It actually makes sense if you think about how much more difficult it would be to slowly place a longer blade inside the protective barrier of a shield. A shorter blade would be more effective for the less skilled. For the length of a sword, over 70 inches would not be a requirement of a two handed sword. Two hands are generally a requirement of purpose and weight, not length. Historically, weapons named as short swords have had varying blade lengths, as it is mostly relative to the total category of used blades at the time, as well as based on purpose and technique used. For a few examples: Green Xiphos (standard greek short sword): 50-60cm Roman Gladius (standard roman short sword): 60-68cm Roman Spatha (considered a "long sword" of the era, and very much a one handed sword just to give a non-shortsword for the era): 60-85cm Arming Sword of the Norman era (probably derived from the spatha, and is the classic medieval "knight's" sword, and also one handed; as a non-shortsword, compare its length to some later shortswords below): 69-81cm Swiss degen (short sword, 15th and 16th century): 40-70cm German Katzbalger (15th to 17th century, considered a short sword of the era): 75-85cm In fact, the Xiphos and Gladius are both frequently categorized as fighting long knives, due to their tensile strength compared to swords of later ages, and their design being centered around thrusting. Further, simply because a blade is longer doesn't mean it isn't useful or used against shields. We see descriptive evidence of Rapiers used against shields for instance. Presumably, a skilled fighter would be able to use longer blades as I described. Pertaining to the flamethrowers, you are correct. The quote you were referring to is the following: "My Sardaukar used the attitudinal jets on their carrier as flame-throwers,"I had recalled the passage, but not the details when the Emperor uses a simile--which of course betrays knowledge of such devices. I'll have to append that section a bit. Still, I would relegate them to the same status as other projectiles; not very useful given the presence of shields, but otherwise fairly efficient against crowds of peasants. The other scene you described I do not remember. Do you remember at least what book it is in? Regarding the size of armies, I agree to an extent. Certainly the numbers would have to consist of auxiliary military personnel and wouldn't be all fighters. However, given rapid mobility (thus lacking the need for large supply chains), low technology of warfare (less need for repair depots and many specialized mecahnical, technological, communication and logistics) I think the number would be smaller than you're suggesting. I would add to that a significant number of spies, assassins and other non-direct fighting personnel that wouldn't appear in a deployment roster for open battle. I didn't mean to suggest that the Baron would leave his planets defenseless, but the depth of his hate for the Duke would certainly have him leave no more than was needed. For recruitment, we only have knowledge (ironic given how big of a secret it was supposed to be) about where the Sardaukar are recruited. Give the size of the militaries I would guess that the majority are professionals, meaning this is their job; they aren't conscripts. Give the caste system in place, I would further say that they aren't recruited, but instead that they may constitute a small privileged class of people, who are born and raised to defend their ruling house. Their loyalty might be greater or less depending on how their rulers treat them, but I wouldn't expect any of them to be about to begin a coup (it is amazing what a good "spy" network can do for you to keep a military loyal). In a time of great need, they may hire mercs, but I would suspect they would use alliances to help bolster their ranks (as the Harkonnen did) and conscripts only if it was really necessary (planetary defense for instance; it wouldn't be worth the cost to pay transport for them in an attack). I believe you might be thinking of the Duke's lieutenants, not necessarily his personal guard: Paul directed his attention to the cliffs, thinking: And it couldn't be Gurney . . . or Duncan. Could it be one of the sub-lieutenants? Impossible. They're all from families that've been loyal to us for generations--for good reason.It is late here, so I'll have to come back to the local police question, but I would probably still stand by my military size estimates as deployable armies using what we have to speculate with so far. (A rough off the hand guess might place the number of spies and related personnel at at least the same size as the armies, if not larger; it is up to you weather you want to consider them part of the military head count or not)

Alright, here it is. I've only looked it over once or twice, so there are probably sections that still need to attention. My apologies in advance. WarfareInDune.pdf

It was written with google docs, so I can export it in a number of formats. Attaching it here in a PDF format or something should work for the thread. Tossing it to Gob might not be a bad idea; he could put it somewhere more permanent if he thinks it is worthwhile.

I haven't forgot :). In fact I just finished my document. It is just over 51 pages long so I can't simply post it here. Anyone have a good idea as to where I could put it so others could read it?

It's been a long time since I've been here. I saw this topic however and it of course was interesting to me... If anyone remembers, I did a lot of examining of this topic in the past and think I can contribute quite a bit to it. I actually had a pretty holistic idea of how warfare worked in the Imperium beforehand, but after recently finishing reading the book again have decided it needed significant revisions. Much of my original theories were influenced by this article as well, but I think some of those bear some revisions or expanding upon. I started writing a reply for this thread outlining those ideas but I've unfortunately hit page 15... I may link to it here once I'm done, but obviously posting it would be fruitless. Hopefully once I'm satisfied with it I can help out more with the topic. There was another old topic on flags or battle standards that I have been writing notes on to revise as well... I don't know as there are many changes for it, but I know there was at least one...

I'm going to be stepping in it by replying here but... I'll start by saying that I've participated in conversations with just about everyone from both sides to some extent, and have had positive results. I've also stayed clear of conversations with many of them because they *wouldn't*. This thread is also a primary reason I don't participate in PRP. In short, while not demanding, suggesting, ordering or even requesting, might I gently advise (yep, a synonym of one of those earlier words) that this thread be moved into PRP because no one(me) in General wants to listen to this? Also... please stay out of Duniverse :) Thanks P.S. I should mention that I think the mods are doing just fine and are certainly not a cause of the increasingly quiet nature of this forum. I should also mention that this thread made me smile to see a sudden gush of interesting activity in general, despite the above request.

hahahaha Rapidly becoming non-dune oriented but much funnier.

Haha nice vanguard. You should just put in another order :). I dare say I thought of the "I'm on a boat" song before I thought of the old spice comercial for this one.

I assume you're probably asking since you're exploring finding some more of his books to read. I have read one or two outside his Dune series, and it is well worth it. Interestingly (probably just the ones I grabbed) I found them to be much more intense, and a more difficult read than his Dune books, so be prepared for that. One in particular, The Dosadi Experiment, I found to contain many of the same themes in Dune, but placed in a much different setting; I always thought of it as "dune on crack" as he seemed to take some of them to an extreme. One problem I always had however, was actually *finding* the books. I'm sure you could probably find them all on amazon, but looking just in bookstores in general, they're extremely difficult to find (again they'll usually order them *if* they're in print). This has only become harder after his son started producing more Dune books; bookstores have a tendency to "phase out" Frank's work in favor of the "similar" new works by his son.

I figured it ment that the Atreides were decended from a long line of thespians. Makes about as much sense as anything else in there.

People are passionate and loyal to Blizzard. I get it. I was quite happy with Dune2000 when it came out, despite the fact that in any objectivable sense it was... absolutely nothing special. So far as I can tell, all SC2 has is the original game with a 2 next to it.

My beta so far has been lack-luster. However, I fully admit that it is probably because I never played the first one to any extent. A friend of mine who also is beta-testing is absolutely in love (he did play the first). As far as I can tell however, it is your standard Blizzard RTS (in fact it is pretty much WCIII without heros, and without the ability to use the battlefield to your advantage). I've got to get back in there and try it a few more times, but so far it looks like they may have simply adjusted/added a few units, improved the graphics and called it a day (3 years in the making).

I gave the demo a shot. I noticed some bugs, but not enough to make it unplayable. The voice acting on the other hand.... *shiver*. I guess I found that they tried to take the "realism" concept too far (to the point of not being realistic due to having to interface behind a screen). As they said however, it is a "similation", not a FPS. The other aspect I found displeasing was that the environmental engine was poorly done. They had very expansive landscapes, but the engine couldn't really support it (laggy). Ultimately I decided I wasn't hard-core enough for the game.

You're bias

ohhhh right. Peter Berg. Whopse.

My thoughts exactly.

I'd say I'm in the camp of "don't make a new one", but mostly because these movies hollywood has been making are crap. JJ Abrams is definitly not my favorite person. Glad he's gone or Dune would have turned into mindless drivel. Wait... that happened 10 years ago. Let me correct. Glad he's gone or Dune the story based off of the novel by Frank Herbert would have turned into mindless drivel. I really don't mind seeing other people's interpretation of the novel, but I don't want to see "Hey how can we make money off of..."'s interpretation of the novel. I guess this is Brian's only way of "getting away" with rewriting the original book to suit his new past-time.

You did misunderstand the post. What I was indicating was just the opposite of what you thought I ment. The Great Convention was between all Houses. The Guild was not a house, and therefore was not bound by the Great Convention. It had otherways of preventing agressions towards their way of life (i.e. you're planet bound if you make them not like you). So the Guild would not care if one house attacked the other with atomics. Thus they wouldn't care if they were transporting atomics, as long as those atomics we not used against the Guild.

Right, but that was a decree of the Great Convention which was (as I understood it) an agreement between the Great Houses (including the ruling house), which the Guild operates completely outside of, and conceivably doesn't really give two poos about, as long as humanity suddently doesn't kiel over.

A brief suggestion: If the guild is willing to cooperate in providing those who lost wars (even those who started and lost), as well as Atomic violators sanctuary, why wouldn't they allow transport of Atomics? It's just another violent payload. Their only concern would be that it doesn't get set off on the heiliner, which I'm assuming they'd know about far enough beforehand to stop. If one planet blows up... that's no concern of theirs as long as they recieved the transport fees. Then they can actually get more fees to transport the violators to Tupile (which I imagine is a cost to the tune of "give us all your worldly posessions, and we'll dump you somewhere safe"). If all planets are attacking all planets? That might rock the boat enough for them to do something about it, or if any of those weapons threatened spice production it would certainly gain their immediate attention as we know. But a couple of fuedal lords popping in frustration? Big whoop! That leads me to a question though, which I find to be a bit more interesting: why would the guild let House Atreides transport THEIR family atomics to Arrakis? My only guess would be because they are theirs, and the guild would have "no right" to prevent them from keeping their atomics on their home world. But that more than anything would seem to be to be an actionthat the guild wouldn't appreciate since it places their lifestyles in harms way, especially since they know an attack was about to go down (one which might make a house which is about to be eliminated, feel that they would have no choice but to retaliate atomically)

Yes, (no) Yes! and YES! Pumpkins on the steps (thought they looked better uncarved), candy is already purchased and mostly eaten (I've got a hose for the damned child-vermin) and a StarTrek TNG-era Commander-rank bridge officer uniform ready and waiting!

First I should point out that a few people in this thread should probably step back and chill. You're pretty much in petty bickering stage as opposed to civil (and useful) discussion, or even heated argument stages. Maybe if it was brought down to more civil level, you'd see more people weighing in with opinions and points of interesting discussion. Of course, this topic (not the original, but what it has turned into) has so far been done to death over the last few years I doubt there's anything new left to go over. But I do have enough time to do at least one point of fact checking. First, try to take note that (as you've already pointed out) the Honored Matres had some interesting sexual abilities. So if they felt (as it seems they did) that they had a destiny to return to the core and dominate, they obviously would know they need a numbers advantage, they certainly could do so as long as they had the resources to support populations that large. One interesting aspect about a universe with as high a number of habitable planets as the Duniverse has (which we're finding is possibly more realistic than not), is that you essentially can support *very* large populations. Now, I don't recall (and don't have time to look up) how many people left in the original scattering, or how many were left at the core, or even what the peek population was in the core when it reached (if it ever did) a stable peek where resources were being used in near totality, but lets assume some *very* conservative figures (and ones I know are flat out too low). Assuming a growth rate of 0.462% per year (remember that at our peak in the '60s, the world reached 2.2%), 1500 years would be just enough to provide a 1000x increase in an original population size. So lets say that the core planets started with the same number of people as that in the scattering. The core has we'll say a more reasonable growth rate of 1%. To achieve a 1000x advantage, the scattering would only need about 1.395%, or a 0.395% increase in population growth. If we also assume that both reached a stable population growth with those figures to achieve that, then the scattering planets must make up approximately 58.2% of the total habitable space in the galaxy, and the core the rest of the 41.8%. Guessing at an even distribution of habitable space across the galaxy (that's not how galaxies work of course), and that the core planets were actually at the core (an impossibility for most galaxies that we would consider habitable), and guessing that the Duniverse galaxy is the same size as ours, (~100,000 Light years across), then the core of the galaxy is about 64,652.92 Light Years in diameter. That makes the scattering's ring no thicker than 35,347.08 Light Years across, or just over half the diameter of the core. Basically, that means traveling for exploration purposes (not using fold space, which I assume requires predetermined coordinates) would have taken half of the time to reach the furthest extent of the scattering from the edge of the core, than to reach the furthest extent of the core from the center. Again since I don't have the data on hand, we can say it took the early space faring people 10k years to settle the core. The scattering took 1.5k years to cover half the distance. But assuming that you have approximately 1.6x10^36 more people than you started with when you started populating the core (since we're not talking about one ship going in a straight line) assuming that 1% growth rate for the core, I'd say 1.5k years is definitely more than sufficient to settle the core and obtain the numerical advantage. Most of those numbers and calculations weren't necessary of course, because we can probably assume the core didn't reach just max population growth, but actually max population *support*, their growth would have dropped to 0. Which means populating unsettled area beyond the core could produce up to 1000x the size with the growth rates indicated above, and 1000x the amount of resources to support that larger population. Of course, I've used quite a few assumptions (usually assuming towards a conservative estimate), that you might not feel is appropriate, so feel free to throw this out if it doesn't fit in with your argument. Either way, I personally feel that the 1.5k years is more than enough time to produce the 1000x advantage, with or without these calculations. What calculations do you provide that indicate that that doesn't add up? (Also can someone check my numbers just for academics sake?)

Oh Hell ya! Tetris! Christopher Walkin for the role of the Right-facing L block!!

Argh ye scallywags! 'ere be yer love fer a bloody good holliday! 'at's right; it be Talk Like a Pirate Day!