Technically, you're not alive

[Dante]

Every system and reaction in the human body can be simplified into a series of chemical reactions. Respiration is the process of extracting energy from Oxygen to provide the body with mobility, and the brain is merely cells with electricity travelling between them.

Each individual cell is composed from many different compunds, but they can all be reduced to their basic elements and compounds. Proteins are nitrogen, carbon, etc. Carbohydrates are Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen, and none of these substances are alive. Thus anything constructed from these building blocks cannot be alive either.

What about thinking? Is it thinking that makes us truly alive? But as I said, brain cells are merely cells. 70% water and all that. The process that we name 'thinking' is nothing more than electrical impulses travelling between these watery bodies. And electricity isn't alive either.

We can gain one of two conclusions from this:

A) That nothing is alive. Not me, not you, nothing.

B) The energy (light, electricity, heat, etc) is alive. Which is unlikely.

Then again, what is 'alive'? Is it the ability to move, reproduce, eat and transfer energy? But if this can be done by groups of non-alive constructs, can it truly be called living?

Any opinions?

[Hawat]

I would desribe "alive" as the ability to decide, to use the possibilities that are served to you. If our life would just be defined by the abilities you sumed up, it couldn't be called "living".

btw. nice thread you opened. im excited :)

just sorry that my answer isn't longer. I wrote down my first impression on your topic. I think i will add my thoughts, when i engage the topic more ample.

[Caid Ivik]

Maybe there are things, which have nothing with electricity...

[Edric O]

Cogito ergo sum.

[Apollyon]

Cogito ergo non sum ebrius satis.

[Egeides]

I think thus I am is false: thus is dependant on the demonstration of rationality, which demonstration is by itself dependant on rationality. Circular.

But I will also answer to the first post: Humes. Knowing everything SURROUNDING something is not to know what IS this something. Also, is the movement of matter the matter itself? Is it because each time you have a feeling an organism is moving that your feeling is this organism movement?

[Terror]

what about souls? Do you think there are souls? Do you think every person has a soul? I mean, what makes a person like you, what makes a person introvert, or aggressive. It's not only the way you've been raised or the things you've met in life i think. There might be more

[ordos45]

Hmm, Dust Scout's got us questioning human nature...again. Well I forget the five things that identify something as alive, but do remember one not mentioned.

We reproduce. That is why viruses are not truly alive, they have to reproduce with hosts they infect.

[Acriku]

The term alive is often defined very loosely, and doesn't encompass everything. Like Ordos said, viruses, according to the life definition is not alive, but because of the actions it takes while inside the cell it is deemed alive by scientists.

[TMA_1]

I think it gets a little dangerous and harmful to overthink about such issues. sometimes issues need to be thought of deeply, but sometimes we create our own swamps of confusion and problems with these kinds of questions.

[Egeides]

TMA: I think everything merits to be thaught if useful to understanding, except that no one should start such discussion without being conscious that even if it gets twisted, it doesn't mean things are twisted, since it's not necessarily the final answer, and perhaps he'll get untwisted answers by searching more. It's not because you're not able to solve a problem corrctly that there isn't a correct answer to this problem. Percentage of being wrong should be considered.

[Dunenewt]

A plant can't make decisions. It is still alive.

[nemafakei]

"Cogito ergo non sum ebrius satis"

Hehehe!

Seriously, though, we merely have the impression we're alive. We cannot know for sure what it is like to be other things- ants, rocks... 'living' is merely another taxonomical instrument we like to apply to ourselves to make us seem special.

[Dante]

what about souls? Do you think there are souls? Do you think every person has a soul? I mean, what makes a person like you, what makes a person introvert, or aggressive. It's not only the way you've been raised or the things you've met in life i think. There might be more

I believe that religion has no place in science.

And with Cogito ergo sum; 'thinking' is electricty moving in a certain pattern in a certain place. Is electricity living? Are the individual conducting elements that it travels though living?

[sneezer3]

You might cansider this to be a "religious Opinion" & i don't like to sneak up on people so just a small warning. I believe you can make religion into just about anything you believe. I'l keep it short and sweet. If you don't like it some other christans here might. but on to it.

I personly believe you have a Soul which is the "ME" part of you. You have to be alive to know what i'm talking about.(Sorry Nema!) We have a Body Soul & Spirit, When God said in the book of Genesis "...Let us make man in our own imege...." Just like the Lord is Father Son and Holy Ghost (the trinty) We'r Body Soul & Spirit. Animals have Body and Soul. You'l never find an animal worshiping (execept maybe himself)

Even if you don't believe me. you'l find it basicly true that We have a body a free will and like no animals or insects we have superstisions religion & many other diffrant things.

You might try http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/ for a more detailed look on that.

Sorry if i drew it off topic to much. this is a public forum i guess though.

[Anathema]

Can Nema or Apployon please translate that?

And with Cogito ergo sum; 'thinking' is electricty moving in a certain pattern in a certain place. Is electricity living? Are the individual conducting elements that it travels though living?

If we're approaching the matter that way, "living" is a collective noun for any series of chemical reactions that repeats, spreads and tends to preserve itself.

[Egeides]

To me, a chemical reaction is a physical movemrent, as a rock thrown into the air is physically moving. It doesn't mean we are limited to this. Otherwise, moving matter with a similar behavior to human would be called human.

[Acriku]

You might cansider this to be a "religious Opinion" & i don't like to sneak up on people so just a small warning. I believe you can make religion into just about anything you believe. I'l keep it short and sweet. If you don't like it some other christans here might. but on to it.

I personly believe you have a Soul which is the "ME" part of you. You have to be alive to know what i'm talking about.(Sorry Nema!) We have a Body Soul & Spirit, When God said in the book of Genesis "...Let us make man in our own imege...." Just like the Lord is Father Son and Holy Ghost (the trinty) We'r Body Soul & Spirit. Animals have Body and Soul. You'l never find an animal worshiping (execept maybe himself)

Even if you don't believe me. you'l find it basicly true that We have a body a free will and like no animals or insects we have superstisions religion & many other diffrant things.

You might try http://www.bodysoulandspirit.net/ for a more detailed look on that.

Sorry if i drew it off topic to much. this is a public forum i guess though.

In other words, humans are the center of the universe and we are superior to the violent and beastly animals. Bull...shit.

[TMA_1]

hey acriku, you went directly towards the religious viewpoint of this post and not to the core matter of it. great job man. :)

[Acriku]

I assume that's sarcasm... I figured I didn't need to respond to the other parts because it's rediculous to conclude anything from the fact that no one other animal has superstitions and worshipping. It's rediculous! All of that is the consequence of a rational mind, and if you give any animal a rational mind they will ask themselves the same questions and come up with answers themselves. I thought this was a "DUR!" But I guess not.

[TMA_1]

wow, proud you caught on to the sarcasm. No it isnt a matter of it being crystal clear. Your ideas are only clear in your perspective and understanding. You rarely ask other people though. I also like how you will IM others about people you disagree with. and say "isnt so and so being a jerk or being a total christian type?" not too mature.

[Acriku]

I'm proud you're proud. ;) So it wasn't obvious that worshipping and superstitions are consequences of a rational mind? I'm sorry, maybe I'll be more clear next time around. And I used to IM people about other people, so what? When somebody is being irrational to the point of insanity, and it goes to no end to talk with that person, I go to another person with my opinions of how rediculous so-and-so is and they usually agree with me. You got a problem with that? And I don't always do that. Just today I wanted to continue a debate with Hawat that was going offtopic in another thread. He's rational, reasonable, and so I decided to talk about it in PM's.

[sneezer3]

Sorry to ruin your thread with a debate dusty but i guess thats the way it goes when you get a bunch of athiests posters on a bored.....

In other words, humans are the center of the universe

Eh. you'd have to define what you mean better by "center of the universe".

[qoute]

and we are superior to the violent and beastly animals. Bull...shit.

So your telling me we have no free will we don't have a body and we have no ablity to worship God??

Please be more specific instede of throwing insultes at the other side.

I assume that's sarcasm... I figured I didn't need to respond to the other parts because it's rediculous to conclude anything from the fact that no one other animal has superstitions and worshipping. It's rediculous! All of that is the consequence of a rational mind, and if you give any animal a rational mind they will ask themselves the same questions and come up with answers themselves. I thought this was a "DUR!" But I guess not.

Well, that part all boils down to rather or not you believe evolution.

Poor sneezer. he's "irrational to the point of insanity" and "how rediculous"

C'mon whats with the insultes with your unproven logic?

Do you always bash the other side to put them lower in other peoples minds. :P

Isn't that in the rules?

Harassing, threatening, intimidating, or discriminating remarks toward other members will not be tolerated.

[Acriku]

I object to that insult. You brought up a point in the debate that I wished to go further with.

Eh. you'd have to define what you mean better by "center of the universe".

This is a common saying to express an egoistic characteristic.

So your telling me we have no free will we don't have a body and we have no ablity to worship God??

Please be more specific instede of throwing insultes at the other side.

I offered no insults in my post. We may have free will, just like animals may have free will, we do have a body just like animals have a body, we have the ability to worship a god because we have a rational mind to come up with answers to questions brought up because of the rational mind. Oh, and don't forget we are animals.

Poor sneezer. he's "irrational to the point of insanity" and "how rediculous"

C'mon whats with the insultes with your unproven logic?

I called you no such thing, and I don't recall every IMing anybody about you. If I did, it was very long ago and I wouldn't even remember why.

If you don't want it debated on, don't bring it up.

[Phage]

Every system and reaction in the human body can be simplified into a series of chemical reactions. Respiration is the process of extracting energy from Oxygen to provide the body with mobility, and the brain is merely cells with electricity travelling between them.

Each individual cell is composed from many different compunds, but they can all be reduced to their basic elements and compounds. Proteins are nitrogen, carbon, etc. Carbohydrates are Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen, and none of these substances are alive. Thus anything constructed from these building blocks cannot be alive either.

What about thinking? Is it thinking that makes us truly alive? But as I said, brain cells are merely cells. 70% water and all that. The process that we name 'thinking' is nothing more than electrical impulses travelling between these watery bodies. And electricity isn't alive either.

In logic this known as the fallacy of composition, assuming that just because a whole contains certain parts it is automatically equal as a whole to such parts.

Example, I can use two traingles to make a square by touching their sides together. Now according to the above reasoning we don't have a square, but one big four-sided triangle. Obviously there is something wrong here. Basically it lies in assuming that just because an object is made of certain little parts, the whole has the characteristics as a whole as those parts. However just as I showed in my triangle example: this doesn't necessarily follow.

We can gain one of two conclusions from this:

A) That nothing is alive. Not me, not you, nothing.

B) The energy (light, electricity, heat, etc) is alive. Which is unlikely.

Then again, what is 'alive'? Is it the ability to move, reproduce, eat and transfer energy? But if this can be done by groups of non-alive constructs, can it truly be called living?

Fallacy of false dilemma. Basically there are more options, including the option of counting energy and matter organized in a certain way with certain approximated traits(which include metabolic reactions/vital signs) as alive.

I suppose in some ways then we can (or at least I would) count certain mechanical divices which had a certain complexity and tried to maintain homeostasis as alive as well.

The reason being that I am not so much focused on the specific materials that make up such a thing as I am how these materials are structured/function.