War will happen, WHAT'S NEXT ?

[emprworm]

sadly, I feel Edrico represents quite a large number of disgruntled European young people who take out their anger at the world, society, and establishment and cast it on the easiest target they can find: Good ole; U.S of A

[SurlyPIG]

That's quite true...the government-controlled media of many "lesser" or developing countries often blame the US for their problems. South America is pretty bad for this.

[Edric O]

That's quite true...the government-controlled media of many "lesser" or developing countries often blame the US for their problems. South America is pretty bad for this.

The funny thing is, Ace, that our media absolutely LOVES Bush. Do you remember the thread DukeLeto posted some time ago about the enthusiastic welcome he received when he came to Romania?

I'm afraid your ideas about me are utterly wrong. The vast majority of young people over here actually SUPPORT the war.

This isn't Western Europe you're talking about. Remember that. People are usually very pro-American in Eastern Europe.

Miles:

Then why the hell bother with democracy? You have it all wrong. A politician had better care about the sentiments and the best course of action for his constituants, or he/she will not be a politician for long.

You've just answered your own question. They only bother would democracy because they have no choice. But they'd gladly get rid of it if they could.

My goal is for the Iraqi people to gain more power and wealth. Saddam robs, murders and oppresses his people, yet you would have him continue to rule.

Saddam is evil, there is no doubt about that. He oppresses his people. But the alternative (a destructive war followed by foreign occupation) is even WORSE.

Right or wrong, I believe that Bush is at least doing what HE thinks is in the best interest of the American people and the world.

No, he is only doing what he believes is in his OWN best interest.

[SurlyPIG]

The funny thing is, Ace, that our media absolutely LOVES Bush. Do you remember the thread DukeLeto posted some time ago about the enthusiastic welcome he received when he came to Romania?

I'm afraid your ideas about me are utterly wrong. The vast majority of young people over here actually SUPPORT the war.

This isn't Western Europe you're talking about. Remember that. People are usually very pro-American in Eastern Europe.

Actually I was making a general statement. I wansn't referring to you or to Romania. My statement would definately not apply to any country in Europe. Mostly the Middle Eeast, partly in South America.

[zamboe]

The funny thing is, Ace, that our media absolutely LOVES Bush. Do you remember the thread DukeLeto posted some time ago about the enthusiastic welcome he received when he came to Romania?

I'm afraid your ideas about me are utterly wrong. The vast majority of young people over here actually SUPPORT the war.

This isn't Western Europe you're talking about. Remember that. People are usually very pro-American in Eastern Europe.

Actually I was making a general statement. I wansn't referring to you or to Romania. My statement would definately not apply to any country in Europe. Mostly the Middle Eeast, partly in South America.

That's not true. You are talking nonsense.

I watch most of the SouthAmerica TV channels (cable) and there is no such thing, all major channels, TVN, UCTV, Telefe, O'Globo, Caracol, TNP are actually somekind supporting US position.

If you don't post proof, your comment is worthless.

[rigel6669]

George W. Bush, President of the United States of America is a man I support.

I recently saw on the news that when the USA would attack iraq today, 60% of the american troops would die eventually due to the fact that 80% of the gasmasks and chemical suits that they are using are defective.

How can you support that knowing that you would send all those americans to their coffin? :O

In the previous golf war, also many troops died of cancer after they returned home, the goverment even denies the existance of the "gulf syndrom" .......

[Anathema]

80 % defected? I'd like to see those numbers, cause it seems a bit high.

And I'd say everyone dies eventually ;)

[Gobalopper]

Don't worry they are using chickens to detect it, Operation KFC. :)

[Miles]

George W. Bush, President of the United States of America is a man I support.

I recently saw on the news that when the USA would attack iraq today, 60% of the american troops would die eventually due to the fact that 80% of the gasmasks and chemical suits that they are using are defective.

How can you support that knowing that you would send all those americans to their coffin? :O

In the previous golf war, also many troops died of cancer after they returned home, the goverment even denies the existance of the "gulf syndrom" .......

I've at least seen previews to shows saying similar things to what you are. It is troubling if it is true, but I suspect that the media exagerates some info in order to make better stories.

I really can't see the pentagon overlooking such an important issue, but I could be wrong. I don't really see the pentagon being that stupid though.

You're right about the gulf syndrome and it disgusts me that it has taken this long for the pentagon to at least concede the possibility. Now it seems that some evidence is leading towards traces of Serin gas that soldiers were exposed to as they destroyed what Saddam left behind.

Your point is exactly why we need to go in now. The longer we wait, the better prepared Saddam will be to use these weapons. As I have said before, the U.S. and it's coalition of the willing stand to lose the most from Europe's appeasement tactics.

[Edric O]

I really can't see the pentagon overlooking such an important issue, but I could be wrong. I don't really see the pentagon being that stupid though.

Oh, they're by no means stupid. They just don't care.

Your point is exactly why we need to go in now. The longer we wait, the better prepared Saddam will be to use these weapons. As I have said before, the U.S. and it's coalition of the willing stand to lose the most from Europe's appeasement tactics.

On the other hand, if you don't invade at all, no one will die. And Saddam will not use his invisible weapons at all. (it should be clear by now that his weapons are completely invisible - that must be why no one found them ::) )

[SurlyPIG]

That's not true. You are talking nonsense.

I watch most of the SouthAmerica TV channels (cable) and there is no such thing, all major channels, TVN, UCTV, Telefe, O'Globo, Caracol, TNP are actually somekind supporting US position.

If you don't post proof, your comment is worthless.

First of all, you should notice that I said PARTLY. Second of all, it's an opinion based on observations. If you think all opinions are worthless, fine. You'd do well with that belief in Iraq.

[Miles]

Miles:

You've just answered your own question. They only bother would democracy because they have no choice. But they'd gladly get rid of it if they could.

You really don't understand us at all do you? This is too ridiculous to dignify with a response.

Saddam is evil, there is no doubt about that. He oppresses his people. But the alternative (a destructive war followed by foreign occupation) is even WORSE.

Let's see, no freedom, or freedom. Yeah, that's a hard one.

I guess time will have to prove you wrong. Our goal is to set Iraq into the Iraqis hands. Yes, there will be a transitional period of military occupation,probably longer than anyone, including Americans would like, but food and medicine will finally be given to the Iraqis during this time until their central government is strong enough to fend off remnant Saddam forces. As will the rebuilding of their infrastructure. The vast amounts of money in their oil industry will finally be going towards the people of Iraq, rather than to Saddam. You will see.

No, he is only doing what he believes is in his OWN best interest.

Well, that is your opinion. And coming from your fanatical anti-american views, it really doesn't mean much to me.

[Edric O]

Perhaps in time you will grow to be less naive, Miles... at least I certainly hope so.

You don't seem to understand. I'm not anti-american. I'm not saying that only AMERICAN politicians are corrupt and care for nothing except themselves. I'm saying that ALL politicians are like that, from ANY country.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have got to where they are now.

But I think we've both made our points clear. Now why don't we just wait and see what happens? You will see which one of us was right in the end.

[Caid Ivik]

You cannot know what they think about. USA is a most prosperous country in the world, with also biggest middle-class. That's fact, which negates that their politicians care only for themselves.

But we'll see...

[Miles]

Perhaps in time you will grow to be less naive, Miles... at least I certainly hope so.

I am a realist. I see the bad things that the US has done, and I acknowledge them. I also see the potential for future mistakes as we are not perfect. I also see that corruption does exist in politics, and know that some politicians are just as you have described. Because of all these, I carry a healthy skepticism. I do not fully trust my government, but If I believed as you do, I would be a paranoid, angry hermit living in the mountains of montana sending bombs through the mail to government workers.

You carry this skepticism to a bitter hatred, and anything that absolute, ALWAYS blinds you to reality. You see the US as demons, as an evil empire and will continue to do so regardless of what happens. You're a blind fool, and the best I can do is disagree with you and not allow you to spread your lunacy to others.

You don't seem to understand. I'm not anti-american. I'm not saying that only AMERICAN politicians are corrupt and care for nothing except themselves. I'm saying that ALL politicians are like that, from ANY country.

If they weren't, they wouldn't have got to where they are now.

No, you carry it much farther than anti-american and to a point of absurdity that sometimes it is hard to reply. Case in point, your "all politicians are like that" statement only shows that you are blind to the democratic process by your hatred of it. Of course you have some kind of evidence of this?

But I think we've both made our points clear. Now why don't we just wait and see what happens? You will see which one of us was right in the end.

Let me ask you, I don't know how long you have been on this site, but did you post against our action in Kosovo? How about in Afghanistan? If so, you have already been proven wrong.

[rigel6669]

Oh, they're by no means stupid. They just don't care.

You are right, they did not care during the 1 gulfwar and they sure do not care now....

Very sad that "Bush" got elected as president.

We will see how many americans will still support him in the next election when all those american soldiers have died at home due to defective equipment.

The worst case scenario: sending your troops to the battlefield knowing that 60% will die and not even try to get good working equipment.... :O

[Caid Ivik]

Hm, in Desert Storm there were big defections of equipment. How many planes they lost? 5? 10? Ah, and don't forget to say that Iraqi destroyed less US tanks than they hit accidentally. So, because soldier can do a mistake, there cannot be a war. But if in diplomacy IS a mistake, there have to be a war.

[Edric O]

You carry this skepticism to a bitter hatred, and anything that absolute, ALWAYS blinds you to reality. You see the US as demons, as an evil empire and will continue to do so regardless of what happens.

Errr, no. I don't see the US as anything - you're a very diverse people. I have friends in the US, and many agree with me on the issue of Iraq. Others don't... so does that mean I see them as "demons"? ROFLMAO!

You're a blind fool, and the best I can do is disagree with you and not allow you to spread your lunacy to others.

Oh, so now I rank as an evil thought-criminal spreading my vile subversive ideas? I'm flattered. :)

No, you carry it much farther than anti-american and to a point of absurdity that sometimes it is hard to reply. Case in point, your "all politicians are like that" statement only shows that you are blind to the democratic process by your hatred of it. Of course you have some kind of evidence of this?

It's called survival of the fittest. Any politician with actual moral principles will never make it to the top because his non-moral enemies will use any means to take him down, while he himself will not do the same to them.

Let me ask you, I don't know how long you have been on this site, but did you post against our action in Kosovo? How about in Afghanistan? If so, you have already been proven wrong.

I've been here since late 1999.

Although I wasn't here at the time, I supported a war in Kosovo, but not the war in Kosovo. It wasn't carried out properly, and many innocent civilians lost their lives.

On the other hand, the war in Afghanistan had my full and absolute support. Why? Because the US acted on the best interests of the Afghani people, and instead of going in with guns blazing, they fought alongside the local opposition groups.

[Caid Ivik]

That you've supported "a" war in Kosovo might mean that you've supported any war. Including Slobodan's terrorizing...

[zamboe]

USA is a most prosperous country in the world, with also biggest middle-class. That's fact, which negates that their politicians care only for themselves.

I was told that the country with the biggest middle-class (as a % of their whole population) (BC1) is Switzerland and not the US.

[Edric O]

That you've supported "a" war in Kosovo might mean that you've supported any war. Including Slobodan's terrorizing...

LOL, I meant a war against Milosevic, duh... ::)

And zamboe is right. The US doesn't have much of a middle class compared to countries like Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden... etc.

[Miles]

[c]

You carry this skepticism to a bitter hatred, and anything that absolute, ALWAYS blinds you to reality. You see the US as demons, as an evil empire and will continue to do so regardless of what happens.

Errr, no. I don't see the US as anything - you're a very diverse people. I have friends in the US, and many agree with me on the issue of Iraq. Others don't... so does that mean I see them as "demons"? ROFLMAO!

I didn't say US citizens, I said the US meaning our government. The government represents the people of the US including our diversity, yet you have repeatedly expressed it as imperialistic, oppressive and immoral.

Oh, so now I rank as an evil thought-criminal spreading my vile subversive ideas? I'm flattered. :)

I didn't say you are evil, I said your a fool. And fools spreading misinformation and lies are dangerous. I'm sorry if you are flattered by this.

It's called survival of the fittest. Any politician with actual moral principles will never make it to the top because his non-moral enemies will use any means to take him down, while he himself will not do the same to them.

I'm really sorry if your government has given you that impression, but don't try to apply the corruption in your government to that of other governments that you know nothing about. I recognize the shortcomings in a democracy, but you exagerate them to absurdity. (at least when applying them to the US)

I've been here since late 1999.

Although I wasn't here at the time, I supported a war in Kosovo, but not the war in Kosovo. It wasn't carried out properly, and many innocent civilians lost their lives.

In what way was it not carried out properly. I see our only mistake in being too reluctant. We should have sent in troops from the beginning to neutalize the ethnic cleansing, but our sensitivity to world opinion prevented this. How would you have had us carry it out?

On the other hand, the war in Afghanistan had my full and absolute support. Why? Because the US acted on the best interests of the Afghani people, and instead of going in with guns blazing, they fought alongside the local opposition groups.

Uhh... the Kurdish forces will be included in our invasion forces. We have troops there now training them. Our model for Iraq is strikingly similar to what we used in Afghanistan. We will have a large coalition of countries aiding us, and the reluctant three will probably either jump on board when the time comes for their own best interest, or sit the sidelines, but it will not be a unilateral undertaking. I am interested to know why you feel this will be different. Do you have any logical reason other than your hate for our government?

[nemafakei]

Hmm. Try and keep things calm - don't accuse until you know what your opponent is saying.

[Edric O]

I didn't say US citizens, I said the US meaning our government. The government represents the people of the US including our diversity, yet you have repeatedly expressed it as imperialistic, oppressive and immoral.

Ha ha ha ha! You really think your government represents you? You are naive. Your government, just like every other capitalist government in this world, only represents the interests of the mega-corporations who fund their campaigns.

I didn't say you are evil, I said your a fool. And fools spreading misinformation and lies are dangerous.

Really? Well, I guess that makes you dangerous then.

I'm really sorry if your government has given you that impression, but don't try to apply the corruption in your government to that of other governments that you know nothing about.

Actually, in some areas, I know more about the US government than about my own. And unlike you, I judge them by their actions, not by their words.

In what way was it not carried out properly. I see our only mistake in being too reluctant. We should have sent in troops from the beginning to neutalize the ethnic cleansing, but our sensitivity to world opinion prevented this. How would you have had us carry it out?

You just said it yourself: You should have sent in troops from the beginning to neutalize the ethnic cleansing, instead of destroying the country's infrastructure and making reconstruction so difficult and expensive.

Despite what you have been told to believe, people like me are not mad anti-war freaks. We judge each case separately. US intervention in Kosovo was needed. US intervention in Iraq would only make things worse.

Uhh... the Kurdish forces will be included in our invasion forces. We have troops there now training them. Our model for Iraq is strikingly similar to what we used in Afghanistan.

You couldn't be further from the truth. Afganistan was in the middle of a long, brutal civil war which you ended. Iraq, on the other hand, is currently at peace, and your intervention will start a long, brutal civil war.

[Acriku]

[c]

And zamboe is right. The US doesn't have much of a middle class compared to countries like Switzerland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden... etc.

Of course, you are looking at this by percentage, whereas the numbers are staggering.