Do aliens exist

[TMA_1]

Back to the future 4. Dont do it martie! lol

[Duneguy]

hrmm.. *whips out his glasses*

Cars=Asteroids...

well this is how i look at it.... there are two cars going a million MPH at each other at odd angles.. they hit.. the cars spin.. spinning pulls them together in Zero Gravity.. the colossion causes heat release... heat warms up the bacteria on the cars. the bacteria lives and evolves to get used to temp and surroundings.. the warming proccess causes the asteriod to partially melt.. hents liquid... and then the bacteria should be fine.. and there u go they grow up to be nice and strong as the cars mesh together they travel thru space until they get caught in a suns gravitational pull.. then there ya go.. they grow up and what have you..

well my theory at least...

[SurlyPIG]

You know. It is really interesting how people think that other life would have to be intelligent. Intelligence is irrelavent to evolution. Its really just a mistake. Just for the sake of debate, evolution is real. Well other life wouldnt be intelligent. There is no reason for intelligence to evolve. Life just fights to live. Its not like evolution peaks towards intelligence. I dont believe in macro evolution. so its silly either way.

Life fights to live? Sure it does. Q: What if gaining intelligence will allow it to live? Is it not logical that it would gain intelligence? Intelligence is EXTREMELY related to evolution, as long as evolving with intelligence will allow a species to flourish more successfully than if it was completely a product of instinct.

Just look at Earth. What is the most powerful and widespread species on the planet? Humans, of course. Do you think it's just a "fluke" that this species is also the most intelligent?

Sometimes our intelligence can upset our instincts, like the fear of death. Our intelligence tells us death is inevitable, yet it is instinctively feared by all. Sure, some try to deny that, but they still have their natural instincts, they just may have more control over them. When our intelligence faces us with something that would make our instincts and emotions go through the roof, we explain it in the simplest way we can. As you might have guessed, I am referring to religion; the most widespread product in the world because of the nature of humans. Only in this day and age, when we have refined intelligence and education to levels that were never thought possible, can we begin to release ourselves from the instincts that grab us. Think about it...when do most people turn to religion? In times of death, birth, marraige, crisis, etc. Things that overwhelm us. Things that we don't know the answers to.

The universe is incomprehensibly vast. Not only do I believe life similar to us exists, but I believe radically different forms of life also exist in many, MANY forms. We are a product of circumstance. With an infinite universe, full of galaxies of galaxies, it is logical to assume similar circumstances might occur. However, it is speculation until reasonable proof that simple life exists is found. If we can even find so much as a unicellular organism on another planet, we'll know that intelligent life IS possible, because we evolved from such organisms.

[TMA_1]

you make evolution sound like its some sort of entity "mother nature". like it thinks or something. Evolution just amounts to accidental mutations that randomly happen. in an evolutionary standpoint we have many more flaws than other creatuers. we have only been around as homo sapiens for about a million years. In evolutionary terms, we are still babies. The test is to see how long we survive. Intelligence is relative in an evolutionary standpoint.

[SurlyPIG]

"Evolution just amounts to accidental mutations that randomly happen."

No, that's just mutations increasing with passed traits developing more extremely in the environments they originated in. Evolution is the inevitable prospect that the oganisms exhibiting traits that benefit them will reproduce more, and the ones that don't exhibit these traits may completely die. IE lets say that two bipedal species emerged with one fundamental difference: intelligence. Those mutations MAY OR MAY NOT be random or related to environment, but the process of natural selection is never random. The unintelligent species would be more likely to die, thus the intelligent ones take over.

You are correct that some mutations are seemingly random, but almost all can be traced to environmental factors. Often, the better of the random mutations survive while the others die off. So it is not just evolution that we have to consider, it's natural selection too.

[TMA_1]

Its not that mutations happen by environment per ce. Its that a certain mutation occures and it is beneficial to the spieces. Also Intelligence cannot be produced by random chance. I dont believe that macro evolution is possible. I am a christian so I follow the strictures of the bible.

[SurlyPIG]

Well if you are a total Christian, who chooses to interpret the bible literally, then you wouldn't believe in ANY evolution. No, intelligence did not evolve overnight. I never said it did, unless you took my example literally. Intelligence is the evolved version of instinct. Instinct is the genetically "programmed" behavioural instrutctions that an organism is created with. Over time, it has evolved to include and accomodate intelligence for use in situations where conscious analyzation would be better than instinct alone. As humans, we are not without instinct. It is simply that our sentient intelligence dominates our instinct. It is the opposite with most animals, and it is just a matter of degree. For example, a fruit fly's decision making process would be nearly 100% instinct, whereas a spidermonkey's decision making process would include much more intelligence and learned behaviour in that percentage, but a good chunk of it would still be instinct. (maybe, 50/50? these numbers are made up but I'm just illustrating a point). A human would be closer to 10/90. We'll never reach the point, however, where we completely evolve out of our instinct. A human baby knows to breathe, knows how to swallow, and, if placed in water, will hold its breath. This is because of its natural instincts...to say that humans are alone in the universe is arrogant, IMO, when there are lesser examples of us on our very planet. Who knows, we may be the species with the highest learning capacity in the universe, we may not. But we're not even the only species that is CAPABLE of learning on this planet, so, in all the vastness of the universe, is it not probable that there's at least SOMETHING out there that would resemble Earth animal intelligence? I think it's pretty reasonable...

[Anathema]

If life comes to existance somewhere, and adapts to its environment, it will gradually evovle into different species. There is no reason to assume that only on our planet intelligent species could evolve over time.

[TMA_1]

intelligence isnt a factor of evolution. I know that for a fact, I Have studied biology and am not speaking out of my ass.lol

The bible doesnt say an ything wrong with adaption of a species. It still stays the same animal though, just minor mutations that benefit it. It never turns into a new creatures though.

[nemafakei]

What difference is there between macro and micro evolution? The first is merely the second, occurring over a long period of time. The species difference is merely a matter of taxonomy.

You don't believe intelligence can be 'evolved'?

Do you accept that, assuming normal evolution occurs, it can take us up to the intellectual point of, say, a tuna, but not a human? Or do you dislike the idea that we can arrive at neurones? Or have you yet to understand how we can get to chemical intelligence?

[Edric O]

I believe he means the human kind of "self-awareness" cannot be evolved. And I have to agree. You can evolve to a tuna, and go further to become a highly "intelligent" animal, like a chimp. But not a "sentient" animal like a human.

There is an immense gap between us and chimps, despite the fact we share 98% of our DNA.

[pointybum]

so where did humans come from then.

[Anathema]

Maybe he means it was there all along, but that the required DNA only became active when our predecessors evolved to the first humans.

[SurlyPIG]

intelligence isnt a factor of evolution. I know that for a fact, I Have studied biology and am not speaking out of my ass.lol

The bible doesnt say an ything wrong with adaption of a species. It still stays the same animal though, just minor mutations that benefit it. It never turns into a new creatures though.

The bible isn't biology. If intelligence will be beneficial to a a species, and if intelligence will allow it to survive better, then they WILL evolve intelligence.

Sentience and intelligence are the same, IMO. Animals are sentient too, but they are just dominated by their instinct, whereas we are dominated by our sentience.

[Acriku]

Edric how in the world can you say that self-awareness cannot be evolved into? Just last year biologists decoded the whole genome, and now they are experimenting whether or not intelligence is a gene trait, with which the answer is still not established. So thus, it is not AT ALL useful to say aye or nay.

[TMA_1]

of course the bible isnt science, but it does explain how things are and what we should do.

I was trying to say that in micro evolution, animals adapt but they are still the same creature as before. Macro evolution is a transition from one spieces to another. I dont believe that. Since when did science change from studying what can be put in a science lab to studying ideas and guesses. and animals arent sentient.lol

[Acriku]

TMA, if one animal adapts so much that it can't mate with the other group of animals, it has thus become a new animal. And that can happen, over time.

[TMA_1]

you just did it there, speculation. you said it can happen but it hasent happened.lol make sure you argue about something yuo can confirm with fact.

[Acriku]

How the heck am I suppose to show you an example if it takes millions of years to happen? :P It is speculation based on previous facts.

[TMA_1]

based on theories, not facts. Come on dork you know that ;) lol

[Edric O]

If intelligence will be beneficial to a a species, and if intelligence will allow it to survive better, then they WILL evolve intelligence.

Non-sequitur.

Just because something is good for survival, doesn't mean it can always be evolved. Take ranged weapons, for example. They are extremely rare in nature. Not to mention explosives, etc. There are many survival gadgets that animals CANNOT evolve by natural means.

Not everything can be evolved naturally.

Also, I do not believe in a materialistic explanation of (human) intelligence. We are body and spirit. The brain serves as an anchor between the two (among other things).

[TMA_1]

wow, good remarks edric. I am amazed.lol I usually disagree with you

[Acriku]

TMA what exactly are facts? Widely-accepted, almost indefinitely accepted ideas right? Aren't scientific theories that are widely-accepted, almost indefinitely accepted, the same thing?

Edric, my theory is that intelligence is a random mutation, and if it does occur (not suddenly a rocket scientist, but on the domino effect of intelligence starting from, possibly, self-awareness) it will aid the animal to surviving if the conditions of environment and circumstances allow it to, and thus intelligence allows it to survive.

[SurlyPIG]

of course the bible isnt science, but it does explain how things are and what we should do.

Thats your opinion. But I won't share mine because you'd be offended...

I was trying to say that in micro evolution, animals adapt but they are still the same creature as before. Macro evolution is a transition from one spieces to another. I dont believe that. Since when did science change from studying what can be put in a science lab to studying ideas and guesses. and animals arent sentient.lol

Macro evolution as you state it has been proven. Scientists proved it with a particular species of fish, I learned all about it last year. Anyway, this fish was just an ordinary species. It lived in a lake that was surrounded by erosion-worn caves. Anyway, a major cave entrance collapsed, trapping some of the fish inside the cave, and the rest outside. Over just a few generations the fish completely lost their eyesight. They were in a lightless cave, so they couldn't use them, thus they lost them. When scientist discovered this sub-species, that looked exactly like it's parent species, they also discovered that the two species, though they were once one in the same, couldn't mate.

If intelligence will be beneficial to a a species, and if intelligence will allow it to survive better, then they WILL evolve intelligence.

Non-sequitur.

Just because something is good for survival, doesn't mean it can always be evolved. Take ranged weapons, for example. They are extremely rare in nature. Not to mention explosives, etc. There are many survival gadgets that animals CANNOT evolve by natural means.

Of course not. They might evolve intelligence, which would give them the ability to create those long ranged weapons and to invent that TNT. Of course it doesn't happen naturally, lol. Apes can use objects in their environment as tools, for example. We are a more advanced product of that building block.

Also, I do not believe in a materialistic explanation of (human) intelligence. We are body and spirit. The brain serves as an anchor between the two (among other things).

I don't suppose you have any evidence of that...

Not that I'm criticizing you expressing your opinion, but why would you post your religious beliefs in a thread that has become completely scientific? It just creates a conflict of interests...that's kind of why I've tried to steer clear of the religion threads, 'cause I know all I'll end up doing is piss people off...

[TMA_1]

they lost their eyesight because it wasnt required. They still stayed to the same basic build and structure of its original ancestor.

Also I dont care about your views on the bible. You obviously dont care much for it.lol I suggest not being so hostle towards other opinion. I am not angry at evoltionists, I just dont agree with what they say. It contridicts what I believe so I am obviously not going to agree. Havent proven it so far.