Loss of Honour

[nemafakei]

Emprworm, testing god is supposedly not the way to prove god. Therefore, no, bombing the ka'bah is not a way of hleping islam in any way shape or form. Moreover, the christian god is supposed to protect everyone, but does he? 11/09/01? Nope. Yet people are still christian...

[Edric O]

War isnt moral edric. None of it is moral. Stop thinking that somehow killing is justified. Even if we have to protect ourselves it is still a sin to kill. killing a thousand is just as evil as killing a million. We just had to do what we had to do.

Uh, TMA, that's exactly what I said! We're on the same side! I totally agree with you on this!

Caid Ivik, like I have said before, I would not hesitate to give my life for God or for Humanity. But it has been my experience that not many people think this way... Muslims are an exception. They DO have a spirit of self-sacrifice. That is why I respect them.

[DjCiD]

he was the same place he was on 9/11 he was when his own son died...

[Edric O]

Moreover, the christian god is supposed to protect everyone

Not true. People have been killing each other since Cain and Abel...

[emprworm]

Moreover, the christian god is supposed to protect everyone

This is simply not true at all.

I have never heard nor met any christian that would claim that "no force on earth" could harm a christian. Have you ever researched the lives of the apostles? And you just think they all died a peaceful death?

[Caid Ivik]

"Emprworm, testing god is supposedly not the way to prove god. Therefore, no, bombing the ka'bah is not a way of hleping islam in any way shape or form. Moreover, the christian god is supposed to protect everyone, but does he? 11/09/01? Nope. Yet people are still christian... "

Fakei, God gave us free will. We can do what we want to do. I thought about WTC as some kind of Babylonian tower, big sign of western civilisation conceit, sign of "what we can do without you, obsolete God". Also, muslim God is same to christian God. He knows, why he allowed this. Much people aren't christian, and that attack was aimed against them.

And to EdricO, who maybe has forgotten those hundreds of christian martyrs following St.Dominic Savio's saying "It's better to die then sin". It's not a thing of previous canturies, look for St.Maximilian Kolbe or those monks, bishops, priests and even normal people pressured in communistic countries. Or your orthodox church had collaborated? Roman-catholics in communist countries fought with this atheistic rule and some lost their lives for their beliefs. Now, even previous communists show themselves as deep christians (I have to hail our president).

[Edric O]

The Church couldn't collaborate even if it wanted to... the Orthodox suffered just like the Catholics under the atheist communist governments.

But that was physical persecution. As we have seen, Christians are very strong in the fact of such acts.

However, we have more insidious enemies, spiritual enemies, slowly eating away at our faith. And what do we do? Drink the poisoned wine that they give us.

[Inoculator9]

Edric I agree that the principle of sacrifice is admirable but several of the muslim terrorists books said that they had 6 dozen virgins waiting for them in heaven. I can never respect the muslims (or atleast muslim terrorists). islam, at this point, has become a religion of intolerance. They hate our way of life so they seek to destroy it. I admire catholics because of the sense of unity and respect for all other religions. The most horrifying aspect of islam, in my opinion, is that the children in muslim countries want to grow up to become terrorists and bombers. How do you fight something that is so deeply lodged into peoples minds? Islam is the poor persons religion, has anyone one noticed the financial situations of all muslim countries? Islam offers these people hope and a cause. The believe that they fight for the good of the earth and it's people. Religion distracts these people from how horrible their lives are.

[Edric O]

The "72 virgins" stuff was invented and used by Bin Laden. It has nothing to do with the Qu'ran.

They have all the right to be angry at us for what we have done to them. Their cause is just, but their means are not. Terrorism is evil, and it is an unfortunate development... But maybe this way our governments will realize that sooner or later, the opressed masses come after their opressors seeking revenge.

[Caid Ivik]

The fact, that much muslims are poor has nothing with their believe, but what are Arabs? Traders. Primarily traders, unproductive, also they don't have much stuff to produce like Europeans do. Just that oil. There are some rich, but also more poor. Even bin Ladin is a merchant, so I think he's a hypocrite, he angers over western economy, where strong companies crush weak.

EdricO, what "insiduous spiritual enemy" is poisoning us without any reaction? This era is just less religious than previous. Today much people laugh at Bible's orders, but after 100-200 years their children will pray for salvation of their souls again.

[Devastator_Mech]

Religion ...... I have none, I assume most stuff is nothing more than "cheaters"

[Edric O]

Caid Ivik, do a few Google searches on "atheism" and "religion". Or go to www.jesus.com See what our society is sinking into.

Don't lose yourself in false reassurances. Atheism is taking over. The process is not reversible. At this rate, nobody will be praying AT ALL in 200 years.

The cause? Western society. Religion is doing just fine in every country that is NOT part of western society.

There might come a time when all religions will have to unite against atheism, or be destroyed. Which side will you be on?Any God is better than no God. We should be fighting alongside the Muslims, not against them. Our common enemy is extremely powerful. I believe our generation will decide the future of humanity for many centuries to come.

(note: by "fighting alongside Muslims", I mean reasonable Muslims fighting by ideological means, not the likes of Bin Laden and his violent psychos)

[Inoculator9]

When I said books I ment their books not their holy books, I know that Bin-Laden invented that. And religion has a lot to do with surroundings. The Native Americans were close to the Earth and in a very beautiful part of it so their religion was partially shaped by that. Muslims are almost all poor. Indonesia has the largest muslim population and the poverty level in Indonesia is outrageous.

[nemafakei]

We should always seek not to fight other religions directly, but let all religious positions join together in producing some means of informing people of the choices they have, and how each person may choose what religion is right for them.

Moreover, we should all work together to produce a common moral code.

[Edric O]

Btw, Nema, please don't take my comments about atheism personally. I wasn't talking about you... It was about atheism as a whole, the cumulated effect of it.

Under no circumstances should we produce a common moral code. That would end up like the OC Bible in the Duniverse - devoid of any spirituality.

All we should do is impose a few general ground rules (e.g. killing is wrong)

[quoudam72]

Indonesia has the largest muslim population and the poverty level in Indonesia is outrageous.

Indonesia, a vast polyglot nation, faces severe economic problems, stemming from secessionist movements and the low level of security in the regions, the lack of reliable legal recourse in contract disputes, corruption, weaknesses in the banking system, and strained relations with the IMF. Investor confidence will remain low and few new jobs will be created under these circumstances. Current issues include: implementing IMF-mandated reforms of the banking sector, effecting a transition to a popularly elected government after four decades of authoritarianism, addressing charges of cronyism and corruption, holding the military accountable for human rights violations, and resolving growing separatist pressures in Aceh and Irian Jaya. On 30 August 1999 a provincial referendum for independence was overwhelmingly approved by the people of Timor Timur. Concurrence followed by Indonesia's national legislature, and the name East Timor was provisionally adopted. The independent status of East Timor - now under UN administration - has yet to be formally established. It has mor to do with government than religion. ;)

[Inoculator9]

Your information is accurate but I don't what part of what I said your disagreeing with. Im talking about economics effect on religion I haven't said anything about government.

[quoudam72]

I was not disagreeing with your statement just making somethings clear about Indonesia. The economics of a country can not be held to the religious conviction of the people can it? The economics is determined by the governmental decisions of the country which in turn effects the country as a whole.

This is off topic but are you saying that because of the way Islam is structured as a religion it will never be profitable when it comes to world economics? Is this where Muslims have failed to step into the light of the modern world so to speak? Islamic beliefs are the source of poverty for Muslims in these countries or am I misunderstanding your point of view. ???

[emprworm]

yes, that is my point of view. islam is the source of their poverty.

[Inoculator9]

No, that isn't what I mean. Although muslims don't excell in the acguisition of funds, because they don't approve of living well. What I meant is that the widespread nature of the religion is because of economics. Poor people see a way to justify that they are poor, rather then thinking "were poor life sucks", they think "God has instructed us to live this way" You just got it backwards. Economics affect religion, but after this affect religion starts to have more impact on economics. To sum up, poorness, begats Islam, begats poorness. Its a cycle. And I don't mean to say that this is the reason for all conversio0ns to Islam.

[quoudam72]

No, that isn't what I mean. Although muslims don't excell in the acguisition of funds, because they don't approve of living well.

They do not approve of living well how can that be true? Maybe the Muslims that you have met come from a developing country with very little education to begin with.

What I meant is that the widespread nature of the religion is because of economics. Poor people see a way to justify that they are poor, rather then thinking "were poor life sucks", they think "God has instructed us to live this way"

There are poor Christians, Hindus, Judaics and Buddhist that statement can not be vaild as you are using it to describe Islam. Muslims would not be Muslims if they were not poor? So what must a rich man be to be rich? The economic background of a person determines their religious convictions. Well how much money does a Buddhisst have, a Hindus or a Christian. Poor people are poor for many reasons but the reason you give I can not disagree more.

You just got it backwards. Economics affect religion, but after this affect religion starts to have more impact on economics. To sum up, poorness, begats Islam, begats poorness. Its a cycle. And I don't mean to say that this is the reason for all conversio0ns to Islam.

Interesting in your thinking so what should we say about a poor man of any of the other religions. Education is far better than wealth remember the saying "a fool and his money are soon departed"? Without education how can a man become wealthy (or keep the wealth that he gains for that matter) and you do not need a college degree to become wealthy just an understanding of how to make money and a creative environment say democratic freedom (or capitalist society). ;)

[Inoculator9]

I'm sorry but I couldn't read your entire post, because your either not reading mine or don't understand them. The nature of the world's religions are different. Buddhist monks believe in having no real possessions. And I have only met muslims in America that grew up here with plenty of money and know that Americans are relatively good people. I am American also so I have not been able to meet an uneducated Islamic person. The dominantly Islamic countries have the misfortune of being among the most poor. Obviously most of them don't have access to an even satisfactory education. Your seem to think that I'm talking about all religions. I know there are poor Christians, and I know that the same theory could not apply to them. Most Christians live in first world countries, and you can't argue with that. Europe and North America are dominantly Christian or Catholic. To a lesser extent Mexico faces some of these economic troubles but the educational system their atleast requires schooling. In Russia, the people are Orthodox, and would leap at the opportunity for money. Muslims of course wouldn't "mind" being given money, but their holy tasks distract them from the necessity of it. Muslims live very holy lives and I respect that, but they have tasks that they believe have been given to them by God and money is not necessary. I suggest that you think a little more about this post before you respond. I don't intend any offense, and I can understand how this could be misunderstood.

[Acriku]

All religions to come together in order to fight athiesm? Haha that's a good idea, let's join hands and commit genocide on heretics of the system. Religion that is.

[ordos45]

As long as Christianity, Islam, and Judaiism still exist there will never be peace among religions.

[Inoculator9]

I'm glad you agree emprworm.