Nuclear War

[nampigai]

Possetion is nine/tenths of the law. As immoral as it is idealistic ideas wont stop it. The Jews were given the land by the British crown and the U.N. Now that it is a settled state we have to leave them to do what they do. "Peace keeping" by the U.N. is just another form of fascism, which we fought against in WW2. It doesn't matter if its for good or for bad. It is against the freedoms of nation states. They will figure out what to do on their own.

I don't beliieve this. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, should we also just have set with our arms crossed and said "they'll figure it out themself". What about the Albanian in Kosovo or the muslims in former Yugoslavia?

The tactic you would use have already been tried out in the years before the 2nd world war and as I have seen and read I believe we ended in a war where millions where killed.

[Shiroko]

Tanks in the civilian towns rarely (If ever) shoot a shell. Tanks are incoporated in a unusual role in Israeli CQB simply as an armored vehicle carrying a machine gun. The IDF uses whatever means he can to achieve a surgical strike on terror, if we wished we would have decimated Jenin. Only 10% of the "refugee camp" (This is in fact a poor neighbourhood, a tent area) was destroyed in Jenin. I tried finding an photo taken from an Israeli airplane showing exactly the destruction, but I couldn't find it on the net. These 10% are a small area that was extremely boobytrapped.

There are also no attacks on religion buildings. For obvious reasons, you should watch palestinian terrorists go in the towers of the temples (Don't know the name for that in English) and shoot IDF forces from there, because they know IDF soldiers do not allow them to shoot back in there. In the church in Beit-Lehem they got further, they hold priests as hostages.

The Jewish people did not "move" from Israel, they were moved by force from Israel. It was done by the Roman empire in 135 AD. We hold the same excuse the palestinians have on that matter. Only we can take credit for what Israeli is today, a western country in excellent state. Believe it or not, but most Palestinians would rather live in Israel than in Palestine. Since Israel has a democratic goverment, social benefits, better health care, better economy and everything else you would expect.

Piss on walls of holy places?

Where did you hear that, since this sounds to me as a terrible act, that all sane Israelis would not be proud of. And I do hope you are wrong about this.

Something about children, 3 palestinians 15 year olds were killed last night north to Gaza. They were armed with knives and grenades and were on their were to terrorize civilian population.

I will also would like to know your solution to the Jewish problem, where should we have go to?

[Acriku]

This isn't a perfect happy happy joy joy world here. We cannot help it if a civilian gets killed, we cannot not do something just because it doesn't make us feel good. This isn't Disney, this is real life. This may portray me as an evil satanistic bad guy, but wake up people. There is an extent of this, of course, but a few deaths can be justified if the end is far greater, but if the end doesn't justify the means then yes you should avoid doing it at all. Machiavelli was misunderstood to say this, but it is how some leaders actually win wars.

[ordos45]

I think its minarets Shiroko.

Anyhow, war is horrible for all involved.  The innocent always die in war, avoid war to avoid innocent deaths.  However, no nation's leaders are concerned with civilian casualties.  If a few civilians die, it is a tragedy, if many die it is a statistic.  (or something like that.)

[nemafakei]

I know that civilians are likely to be killed in any fight. But the point is that when the war is as much one side's fault as the other's, and the IDF is shooting at unarmed civilians and the press... all I'm saying is that the IDF is no better than the so-called-terroroists

[Anathema]

Aren't minarets those onion-shaped things on mosques?

Shiroko, as for where I heard of the IDF pissing on Islamic sanctuaries, I heard it on the news. A Palestinian was standing in the remains of a mosque, wich was totally ravaged. Somebody has obviously been intentionally ravaging that mosque. The Koran books were burned and the walls were pissed on by IDF troops. Say what you will, but I don't believe any true muslim would ravage a mosque to make the Israelians look bad.

Tanks rarely shooting in civilian towns? Then how do you think they could have wrecked all of those houses (yes- houses. Not terrorist nests, but civilian homes)?

I am not saying the Palestinians are not at fault. I am just defending them against the statement that the Israelians are the good guys and the Palestinians are evil terrorists, wich you suggest Shiroko.

[Shiroko]

The majority of the ruined houses were boobytrapped. Simple as that. IDF forces had a bomb every few matters. In some cases buildings were so heavily boobytrapped that they were totally destroyed.

Corpses were boobytrapped as well (What caused the red cross to complain on corpses evacuation).

The cse in Jenin where 13 Israeli soldiers were killed was a boobytrapped building, none of is has been left standing after the bombs their, though no tank or chopper shot anything explosive there.

The palestinians are not the bad guys, the terrorist organizations are "badguys" (If such a definition is possible in the real world).

The majority of palestinians are not terrorists, but they do not do anything to fight it. If you're gonna let terrorists from your village to kill civilians, don't complain when someone comes to hunt them. If you're gonna sit aside when terrorists transport bombs in Ambulances, don't complain when your Ambulance is delayed in a blockade. This is a price for terror, we have no other way to fight it.

Understand that this is not hostility, it is the only choice we have. The Hamas wants to control all of Israel and sees no place for Jews in it, the other organizations are less radical, but they dictate the behaviour in the palestinian areas. Unless the silent majority won't rise and understand that these organizations cause them only sufferc we are left with no partner for peace. Arafat declined a lot of peace offers and keeps on refusing to everything. While we replace our prime minister every 4 years (Or usually less due to shifting in the thoughts of people) the palestinians are lead by Arafat, and have no alternative for it. We would rather have peace here, but it won't happen. The more likely option is an international force. The problem is that such a force will not make the terrorist organizations stop, but it will hurt our defense against them. Israel has very little respect for such a force because of the north border where U.N. troops are simply afraid from the Hizbullah and let them do whatever they want. They even gave them a U.N. car to execute the kidnapping last year. Later on they denied an existanse of a tape showing the kidnap. They did not let Israel check the car for blood stains until recently. Just two weeks ago, a few Hizbullah members beat up a few U.N. troops, the U.N. are simply scared from them.

This is why for most Israelis the only option that seems most logical is to defend ourselves. It seems logical to you too, think when you play a RTS game, would you sit down and wait for enemy forces to attack you or go destroy his economy? Same thing for us, instead of trying to catch suicide bombers helplessly, the operation's goal is to destroy the terror network in the palestinian areas and avoid the advanced bombs and more dangerous terrorist acts. It is not about harassing civilians, not about destroying mosques, not about blocking civilians from food. This are all unwanted effects of the goal, which is a terrorist hunt, a hunt for people that get their goals by killing civilians. by sending girls to suicide in supermarkets, by blowing up a Seder, by sending a suicide bomber to a kindergarden.

[nemafakei]

"If you're gonna sit aside when terrorists transport bombs in Ambulances, don't complain when your Ambulance is delayed in a blockade"

What exactly are they meant to do about it? Attack their *own* ambulance?!

Think of it the other way around...

Israeli tanks drive into your city. Would you, as someone who's country has been occupied by the Israelis sit aside?

"This are all unwanted effects"

Do you think that most palestinians want to kill people any more than you do? No. The problem is that there are two sides who fight each other. Both kill civilians, both do so in each other's territory, both try to frighten the other into submission. Both fight for the rights of their own people over that of the opposition.

Let me ask you, if the terrorist network was thickest in the jewish part of israel, would Sharon decimate the cities there to get them, killing innocents in its wake, etc.?

[quoudam72]

The Israeli soldiers are doing a wonderful job for example on April 4, 2002 soldiers went into the Ministry of Education and took hard drives from every computer and robbed a safe of about 10,000. The information taken from the hard drives contains information on about 650,000 teachers and students in 155 West Bank schools. In Ramallah the tempt. capital of the future state of Palestine, solders invaded Palestine Authority ministries, raided courts, broke into banks and stole money, trashed non-governmental offices serving health, human right and commerce and stripped land registries of maps. In Bethleham, a Syriac Orthodox church was bombed, hermitic caves dynamited and a refurbished old market. In Nabus, the city's oldest mosque was gutted, soap factories destroyed and a bath house ransacked. Is this about security or about destroying the Palestine heritage?

No wonder the greater Palestine demands accountability and protection. A fact finding mission was being sent to Jenin on April 19, 2002, Israel at first agreed to the mission but just 4 days later, on the 23rd, declared that the mission was not acceptable delaying it to include more military experts. This mission was to include Cornelio Sommaruga, a former chief of the ICRC (International Committe of the Red Cross), and Sadako Ogata, a former UN high commissioner for refugees. Kofi Annan, the UN secretary-general has suggested that a multinational force be sent toe the occupied territories. The force would not merely police a cease fire and an Israeli withdrawal; it would guarantee unimpeded humanitarian services to the Palestines, rebuild the PA institutions and bring back economic activity to the occupied territories (3/25 of the work force is temporarily or permanently unemployed and this matches the 3/25 of all production in the West Bank that has come to a standstill). This is what Ariel Shoron calls a great accomplishment it's a humanitarian disaster.

You know it's strange the Palestines have no tanks, no airplanes they do not even have a regular army!!! Just homemade bombs and the will to fight to be free from their living hell in the Holy Land.  

[Shiroko]

"What exactly are they meant to do about it? Attack their *own* ambulance?! "

I'll share a part of Israeli history with you.

After WWII the british goverment decided reducing the amounts of Jews allowed to move to Israel. It was just after the holocaust, when millions of Jews had no home, or the will to go back to where their neighbours let them be sent to their death. A lot of Jewish resistance organizations existed and towards the end executed even a few terrorist acts. Most acts were against structures, destroy british railways, bridges and more.

A few acts, which are something we are not proud of, and would rather forget (Make no mistake, every student in Israel learns about it) are some terrorist acts.

At one point the King David hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, it shocked the Jews in Israel and they fought the idea of such things ever happening.

In the middle of our independence war, those organizations were combined to the IDF. Though at some point a former organization wanted to preserve itself and ordered a ship full of weapons to Israel. The ship named Altalana was cought and started a debate which forced Ben-Gurion (Prime minister) to fight and almost cause a war between some Israelis, it was his stand that forced in power all people who thought on retaining several armed organizations in the country of Israel.

The palestinians until this day, ever since the Oslo agreement never did this. They let the Hamas and Islamic Jihad gather strength even when they talked about peace and signed agreements. The situtation now can be solved in the meanwhile by military operations, international forces and more. But as long that the palestinians don't stand up and decide the no terrorist organizaitons will exist and only the Police will be allowed to carry guns it will not be solved completely.

Several interesting facts for the end of this post:

-Money taken from the Palestinians is fake Israeli money which was printed even in Arafat's offices.

-The palestinians in Jenin now dig out old bodies and move them to the central grave in Jenin in order to make it look like a massacre.

-Palestinian terrorists hold priests as hostages in the church in Beit-Lehem. They will protect their life in the price of priests' lives.

-Documents taken from the Palestinians are taken in order to find evidence for terror links. You would be surprised where you can find such links.

[quoudam72]

Shiroko if the money is fake why has the Israeli forces not said anything about the money being fake? The same would go for the documents also about them being linked to terrorist organizations?  

[Shiroko]

It has been said, I've read it in the press here. And the press here is free to say all they want so it's not propaganda.

The Israeli PR is very bad, and it is reflected by how such things reach the press.

If you read a small headline "three 15 year old palestinians were killed by IDF force" and only in small text you will read that they were trying to infiltrate a Jewish settlement.

[Anathema]

Shiroko you keep on calling all Palestinian terrorist acts organized. Most terrorists are independently operating terrorists who commit terrorist acts on their own initiative. We don't know for fact that Arafat is (still) supporting terrorists, though he does more or less encourage the population (I am reffering to the time he actually called for a jihad- he didn't know he was being taped).

Whatever you say, remember, terrorists do NOT represent an entire nation of people.

[TMA_1]

lol.. I love how people trust in the media (world's media organizations) for information. a certain book 1984 comes to mind. I guess since the media says something we should all believe it.lol you guys people die every day. War is evil, but it cant be stopped. the U.N. Has no right to enter in this. its none of thier business. The U.N. is  focused on the western world and frankly since the cold war is done we dont need it anymore. "People cry, peace peace!, but there is no peace."

[Shiroko]

Not all Palestinians are terrorists obviously.

But the terrorism is organized.

After every terrorist act an organization takes responsibility for the act. Almost always they supply a tape of the suicide terrorist before he went for the mission. The terrorist organizations recruit these people, promise that they will take care for thier families and supply them with the bomb, information and training.

Arafat is linked to the terror, that is why IDF is taking all the documents, to supply hard evidence of how he acted in the last two years. His offices are filled with documents that show how the authorities backed up economically the terrorists. Documents detail prices.

Want some numbers? (This is from recent documents found in places like the Mukata).

$300 - For every small terrorist.

$800 - For a major "Shahid".

20k NIS ($4000) per month is the monthly cost for the bomb making of the "Al-Aktza Shahids troop" (A organization that includes a few terrorist organizations).

$100k is the price for building a heavy weaponry workshop.

The documents that include these numbers arec letters that have been sent through Maruan Barguti, Arafat and other people high up in the ranks of the palestinian authorities.

-Shiroko

[ordos45]

Shiroko, most Palestinians are innocent, most Muslims on Earth are innocent.  its always the radicals which make headlines.  Though sometimes even in American mosques you will hear about the infidels they must live among.  

The israel situation will not be resolved with treaties, but by blood.  As for both military sides I feel no pity.  Both have blatantly violated the strictures of the Geneva Convention on the grounds of medical intervention and probably POWs.

War on terror, yeah right.  The US is not at war with terror.  For the US to be involved in a war the Congress would have to vote to declare war.  Its just a conflict that will claim many lives, many lives, just like Vietnam.  Has Parliament declared war on terror yet?  

[TMA_1]

war on terror is bull***t. excuse the potty mouth but its true.

[Digital Guerrilla]

And the truth hurts.........................

[Shiroko]

You perception that Sharon does what he wants with the IDF is wrong. Sharon is the head of a democratic state. He decides on all operations in seveal forums.

And the Kneset (Congress) needs to approve emergency military drafts.

What will you call the USA's war on Afganistan?

Where civilians were killed in much bigger numbers. The US Army didn't even dare do what Israel does in order to protect them. The USA simply bombed towns from the air with thier F-117s, B-52s and B-2s.

Of course you won't get a big protest against such a war, it's very hard to protest against the most powerful country in the world.

The USA's war on terror took much more lives than the entire 2 years of conflict in Israel. But who in the media cares about Afganistan civilians? Or North alliance troops? (Which were used by the USA as their ground force to minimize casualties and preserve the public support back home).

If war on terror is bull***t... Then what do you think we are doing there?

[nemafakei]

"The palestinians in Jenin now dig out old bodies and move them to the central grave in Jenin in order to make it look like a massacre"

Yes, but the filming I was referring to was immediately after the blockade was stopped, and they were excavating dead bodies. Are you telling me that the palestinians blew up their own buildings in ordetr to trap and kill their own children to make it look like a massacre?

Shiroko, there are two problems that you haven't answered yet.

Would Sharon attack the terrorists and decimate cities in jewish Israel (thus inevitably killing Israeli innoccents)?

What is the difference between the IDF and the palestinian terrorists, except for the uniform?

[Shiroko]

"Would Sharon attack the terrorists and decimate cities in jewish Israel (thus inevitably killing Israeli innoccents)?"

We don't decimate palestinian towns. If though a building holding terrorists inside Tel-Aviv would have been full of bombs, I'm quite sure it would come out in a very bad shape.

Luckily, the Israeli authorities make sure no terrorists can get in Israel and operate in that way in it.

"What is the difference between the IDF and the palestinian terrorists, except for the uniform?"

The difference is that palestinian terrorists set as a goal to kill civilians in order to frighten Israeli citizens. While IDF soldiers set as a goal to hurt only these terrorists with minimum unessecery casualties. If the terror acts will stop, IDF will stop. While if the IDF will simply stop now, the terror will continue.

[leech13]

i didnt tread this entire thing about starting a nuclear war n'stuff but...

[leech13]

And another thing: i doubt that the American's "care" about the lives of others...

how rude

why wouldn't we?

what did we ever do to you (whatever place you are from) that you believe we dont careour gvnmt doesn't care, thats for sure

ps mr saurdakaur

how many times a day do you donate cash to all the starving people in the middle east and elsewhere(i just used middle east because thats what is on all the "please help little jimmy for the united christians fund"...another reason im not religious)what about just thinking about them

please tell me...

[TMA_1]

if war on terror is bull***t then what we are doing there is bull***t.lol

[Anathema]

@ Leech 13:

I don't doubt that there are Americans who truly care about the lives of people from other nations, but don't try to make us believe that high militairy brass in the US will shed any tears when innocent Afghanistanian civilians die when they bomb something. The first thing they'll probably worry about is that they won't get negative media attention for this.