No same-sex hugs allowed

[Wolf]

Pretty familiar. See, unlike you, I stopped listening at the "love everyone" part and went with that. I'm curious what parts you stopped listening at. Quotes. Jesus Christ. New Testament. You got 'em? Or was that dismissive, self-righteous little post your way of saying you don't?

Also, I'll also take that as your way of saying that the Old Testament's laws don't matter. Don't need to be followed. I don't expect to see you quoting from them any more to support homophobia.

Oh, and PS: I like how you didn't confirm or deny your blatant self-contradictory posts back there that I quoted! And you even had the gall to imply that I don't know Christianity! Way to ignore the meat of the post, again! Pick and choose, pick and choose!

[athanasios]

Thanks ErasOmnius for the replies. I wouldn't say much different with the EXCEPTION that immigrants are welcome ONLY when they are willing to adopt the Greek culture and behave respectfully and obey the law. Needless to add that many of my friends are immigrants from various countries of Africa and Asia (Palestinians and Israelis included and no strife and conflict between them). And I shouldn't bother to add more since I have already stated that my wife is an immigrant. So other members are inexcusable to request more. But for your information I will be more descriptive.

Those who do not comply even we have tried hard to help them to, and they are the majority, are UNWELCOME and will be kicked out soon. We cannot tolerate ghettos in our city where you fear to loose your head and we cannot tolerate riots and we cannot tolerate dirt and filth.

In detail:

We cannot tolerate our kids not being able to walk freely and safe in the same roads we walked and played when we were kids.

We cannot tolerate our kids being beaten by Muslim kids because they eat pork sandwich or souvlaki.

We cannot tolerate the dirt and filt on the roads and buildings they invade to inhabit illegally that is a public health threat.

We cannot tolerate having to vaccinate ourselves for Hepatitis because of the dirty and sick immigrants using our public transportation and town facilites.

We cannot tolerate the smell of urine on our roads.

We cannot tolerate to have to sit next to a dirty filthy immigrant in the bus who didn't wash his clothes since he bought them.

We cannot tolerate watching mice and roaches having a feast in filty shops and holding our nose and feeling to vomit when we enter them.

We cannot tolerate the selling of merchandise spread on filthy blankets on the road and and fast food of unknown origin and materials sold from cleaning buckets.

We cannot tolerate not paying taxes for the above mentioned merchandise and thus bleeding our economy (not to mention that all the profit is send to their native countries who import nothing from Greece so as to have a balance).

We cannot tolerate the immigrant hordes/gangs of beggars insisting to clean your car at traffic lights and pressing women drivers to give them money, often verbally abusing if you tell them to go away.

We cannot tolerate criminals packing drugs using photocopies of Koran pages and when the police tears those papers to find the drugs their religious leaders to incite their communities to burn shops and cars and turn the city into a battlefield with the pretext that the police doesn't respect their sacred book and religious rights even though they are aware of the questionable behavior of those criminals.

We cannot tolerate the riots and killings between different Muslim fractions that have turned our peaceful traditional centre into to a mini Kabul.

We cannot tolerate immigrants who wish to convert to Christianity to be threated to death as traitors publicly by Muslim religious leaders in their places of worship, and having to resort to police protection.

We cannot tolerate Muslim religious leaders to threaten Muslim families that wish to send their children to visit museums with their school that they will get back their children dead for mixing with faithless and visiting places of the enemies of their religion and tribe.

[Eliyyahu]

Pardon me, Wolf, but when you said that you were a Christian I thought that meant that you were already familiar with the Scriptures.  Homosexual sex is condemned in both the Old Testament and the New Testament.  So I

[chatfsh]

Acriku

[Wolf]

I

[Acriku]

Hwi, aren't all of those quotes merely saying that following the law is not enough to be saved by Jesus? That faith is required as well?

[chatfsh]

Eliyyahu

[Wolf]

Too bad you blamed your new demeanor on being busy: otherwise I would have commended you for finally approaching the issue in a humble/inoffensive/perhaps, even neutral way. But I guess you were just busy.

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

You referenced a quote from Jesus regarding Sodom and Gomorrah.  That is of more interest to me than quotes from people who were not Jesus, and who never met Jesus (i.e. Paul and his disciples).  Sodom is referenced thirty-nine times in the "OT".   In fact, Ezekiel is explicitly clear on what caused Sodom's destruction.

Ezekiel 16:49 (NIV)

49. " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.

50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

You may say that detestable things refers to homosexual sex, but this would be an oversimplification.  Ezekiel clarifies what he means by detestable things in chapter 18.

Ezekiel 18:5-13 (NIV)

5. "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right.

6. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period.

7. He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.

8. He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man.

9. He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD.

10. "Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things

11. (though the father has done none of them): "He eats at the mountain shrines. He defiles his neighbor's wife.

12. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.

13. He lends at usury and takes excessive interest. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.

"Detestable things" is the NIV translation of ha-to'

[athanasios]

Ezekiel omitting homosexuality doesn't mean that it isn't detestable in the eyes of YHWH.

You mentioned that they wanted to rape the guests. Granted it was very bad as it was against the custom of hospitality. But don't forget that the guests were males.

[ErasOmnius]

Dante, first of all...this thread is about homosexuality, so that is what this thread concentrates on. There are plenty of heterosexual misguided behaviors that could be addressed, but that is not the topic of this thread.

Right from the start. I advocate no changing of any law -- because it does not change the heart. I am not sure why there is such an up-in-arms attitude to men and women who come for psychological counseling, and no longer want to be homosexuals. They come to us for help, of their own free will. Some become ex-gays and ex-lesbians.

Obviously in the West, homosexuality shall soon be completely legal -- with all that is implied by that. Homosexual 'marriage', homosexual adoption, etc. I may not be for the concept, but I believe that Christians should stay out of politics completely.

Lesbianism - In the Old Covenant, the law was exile for two women. Obviously this implies that it is quite less of a misguidance than between two males. It probably has to do with the complete anti-Creator, anti-Universe use of male reproductive fluid by two+ males; and the purposeful placing of it into the fecal waste canal.

AIDS - Why are we laughing about monogamous heterosexuals, a still common occurrence? A male and female monogamous have no change of contracting new venereal diseases. The high rate of AIDS in male homosexuals seminal fluid gives a great chance of the spread of HIV/AIDS.

I know it's time to attack me, but when one gets down into the nitty-gritty of people who are suffering, and want help -- it's not funny.

[Acriku]

There are monogamous homosexual relationships, just as there are millions of heterosexual partners who have casual sex. You do not seem to get that concept.

The spread of venereal disease comes from ignorance of safety and the amount of partners one person may have (excluding factors outside of sex, like drug use). Nowhere in there does it specify what orientation.

What irks me about Christians taking in homosexuals under the umbrella of Frankenstein-in-remission is that there is nothing wrong in the first place. But if they really want to, then they will. People have their own reasons, like the couple in the newspaper link Dante brought up that started this thread.

[Dante]

You're operating a double standard, Eras. In short:

AIDS does not just spring magically into being. It is a disease, it is caught by infection. An HIV-negative couple, whether homosexual or heterosexual, will not suddenly develop an infection. Unless, as Acriku mentioned, drugs or some factor other than sex is also involved.

Someone who has sex with many people, whether male, female, hetero- or homosexual, has a higher chance of having sex with someone who is HIV-positive. In short it is behaviour, not orientation, that has a greater role in determining exposure to STDs.

Also, anyone who wants to change who they are when there is nothing wrong with them is suffering from a profound and probably painful delusion. There is an "up in arms" attitude because they should not have to feel like that, and you are participating in that falsehood.

Also, we never did get back to that point about saying who we are. Did the news that there's only one gay person here rather take the wind out of the sails of that argument?

Now I was going to say that Hwi apparently didn't realise that we were still talking about that specific part of the Catholic Catechism and so reacted in her customary fashion, namely by returning the discussion to the comfortingly familiar ground of old prejudices, but she also remains a knuckleheaded trollop with all the tact, grace and higher brain function of a ball of pus, so I'll just finish with a picture of a potato.

[chatfsh]

There is no basis in reality to say that Jesus fulfilled "Old Testament law".  I am perfectly fine with the notion that there was a historical basis for Jesus who did in fact observe Jewish law (according to the teachings of the Pharisees, in fact), in which case he was not a lot different than millions of other Jews in his day and in the days since.

That is not true.  As many Jews understood, the Old Law Covenant was a mere shadow of the good things to come, a tutor leading them to Christ.  The Old Law Covenant exposed sin in that the breaking of it defined sin.  It was the measuring stick by which righteousness was determined. No one could keep the law perfectly, which was the whole point, to reveal to mankind that we are incapable of living up to God

[Acriku]

From what you are saying, Jesus merely elaborated on the commandments brought forth to Moses. None of the examples you bring forth contradict what the Torah says, only Jesus puts his spin on what it means to him. This still doesn't show how you don't have to follow the Sabbath, or any other part of the Torah.

[Wolf]

The point here is that even though Christ brought an end to the Old Law Covenant, far from letting everyone

[Anathema]

I was just browsing through some of the older pages in this thread. I was looking for a post made by Hwi Noree, Athanasios or ErasOmnius. The essense being "I think homosexuality is immoral, but I think Uganda is wrong in punishing it (so strongly)"

Big surprise, no such post exists.

God

[athanasios]

I was just browsing through some of the older pages in this thread. I was looking for a post made by Hwi Noree, Athanasios or ErasOmnius. The essense being "I think homosexuality is immoral, but I think Uganda is wrong in punishing it (so strongly)"

Big surprise, no such post exists.

Then go and read the Bible: 'To me belongs the vengeance'. They are free to do whatever they like but they will be accountable to YHWH.

ErasOmnius: Homosexuals are violating God's law. This is not politics! Politics is to support one party or another whether they want to impose laws that are 'christian' painted or abolish them, since we now that all present governments originate from Satan the Devil who is 'the ruler of this world'. Do not forget that in ancient Israel the king was 'sitting on the throne of YHWH', so that his power was limited and granted from above and was accountable to God. Today no ruler has stated similarly. Nobody recognizes Jesus as his king, nor YHWH as his God. Neither do they accept their imperfection in ruling mankind ('man rules man to his injury') and the need to seek God's guidance.

[chatfsh]

Unless you can find a scriptural or theological justification for why we should maintain some Old Covenant laws and not others, or a solid justification for why a few scattered quotes from the New Testament should outweigh the "love everyone" and "embrace everyone" message of Christ--which is repeated ad nauseam--I think you're SOL.

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how anyone could read the Bible and still come away with the impression that Jesus was simply about love and acceptance to the exclusion of his other attributes.  No doubt love is of the utmost importance, but it is well balanced by Jesus

[Wolf]

You know, it never ceases to amaze me how anyone could read the Bible and still come away with the impression that Jesus was simply about love and acceptance to the exclusion of his other attributes.  No doubt love is of the utmost importance, but it is well balanced by Jesus

[ErasOmnius]

The Son is about love and forgiveness now.

He is about setting up His government to rule the world when He returns -- which will be soon.

No one is saying that Jesus is all about love and forgiveness. In the New Testament, He mentions confining people to the Outer Darkness, talks about a rich man in a place of extreme heat, talks about multitudes being in the lake of fire. In Revelation, millions are killed.

Jesus came for those who believe they have problems, Mark 2:16-17.

Not for those who believe that everything in their lives are satisfactory.

In the past, people could say, it's illogical to use one's body against what it's designed for -- and people would bend their wills to that belief. I know it's hard to believe, but people actually could control themselves.

But now, people actually believe they are homosexuals, as if there is a gene for the behavior -- although no such gene has been discovered.

Then people talk about, 'well some religious systems say that one can be a chaste homosexual'. A chaste male homosexual? Who believes that? They themselves talk about the tens and hundreds of sexual experiences; with 1, 2, 3, or 4+ men at one time.

When one reads their literature, the focus is constantly on the physical aspects of their bodies. Honestly, some of it is un-readable, because of the constant focus on the next sexual conquest. Then male homosexuals come in for counseling, and they re-affirm all of the above -- but I'm supposed to not believe it is the norm -- or at least close to it?

[Eliyyahu]

Hwi,

I will have a post up tonight or tomorrow night (if not, then after Shabbat), probably as a new thread (our discussion goes beyond the scope of this thread).

[Dragoon Knight]

In the past, people could say, it's illogical to use one's body against what it's designed for -- and people would bend their wills to that belief. I know it's hard to believe, but people actually could control themselves.

But now, people actually believe they are homosexuals, as if there is a gene for the behavior -- although no such gene has been discovered.

Then people talk about, 'well some religious systems say that one can be a chaste homosexual'. A chaste male homosexual? Who believes that? They themselves talk about the tens and hundreds of sexual experiences; with 1, 2, 3, or 4+ men at one time.

When one reads their literature, the focus is constantly on the physical aspects of their bodies. Honestly, some of it is un-readable, because of the constant focus on the next sexual conquest. Then male homosexuals come in for counseling, and they re-affirm all of the above -- but I'm supposed to not believe it is the norm -- or at least close to it?

You just can't help yourself, can you?  "People would bend their wills to that belief" - what?  No they wouldn't.  You're an idiot.  The ancient Greeks didn't even have proper terms for "heterosexual" and "homosexual" as we use them now.  They responded to attraction in either gender.  All throughout history, there have been periods when homosexuality was embraced and accepted, and there have been other times when idiots like yourself have condemned it.  I take great pleasure in the knowledge that we are entering a new age of enlightenment regarding this, and you and your ilk are a dying breed.  Perhaps in one or two generations, you'll all be gone entirely; your illogical, hateful and offensive blabberings confined to the past.

"People actually believe they are homosexuals" - again, what?  Now you're saying that people only think that they're homosexual?  It's all just pretend, and they make it up in their head?  I would say that this is perhaps one of the most stupid things I've ever heard, but I'm reserving that particular comment for one day in the future.  It will be a cloudy day, with a chance of showers.  On that day, either The Grand-High Idiot-Queen, or her three stooges - yourself, athanasios and arnoldo - will say something so completely stupid and wrong that it will crash the forum.  As it stands, you are simply laughably wrong.

I would like to be able to say that every experience you've had regarding homosexuals has been fake; that every "cured" person you've been introduced to, or every man or woman who "wants help with their condition", has been false.  But I can't say that, because sweeping generalisations are not my style.  What I can say is that, despite there not being an identifiable gene for homosexuality, neither is there one for why I like the taste of pepperoni.  Are you going to tell me that I don't really like pepperoni?  That I'm just making it up?  Perhaps I really hate pepperoni.  Please, ErasOmnius, HELP ME OVERCOME MY LOVE OF PEPPERONI.

Next, you go on to suggest (again) with the subtlety of a brick to the face, that homosexuals do nothing but participate in wild orgies all day.  Do you know who participates in wild orgies the most?  Straight people.  Next, I'm guessing, is probably lesbians, because boy do those DVDs sell... but you're missing the point.  There will be gay people who like having a party lifestyle, having sex with multiple partners.  But how many people - straight or gay - do you know personally who do that?  And before you answer, consider that if your response is more than one or two, that possibly those people you "help" are there to try and get out of the destructive lifestyle that sort of existence brings?  That maybe - just maybe - they want a way out of the drinks, drugs and partying, but you and all your idiot friends convince them that they have to deny their own sexuality, too?  Programming like that is cult behaviour, and it's not uncommon in the sort of "centers" I picture when you speak about your horrible, horrible life.

Also, don't get any ideas about latching on to that above paragraph because I used the example of gay people who act like you described.  The vast, overwhelming majority do not.  Hell, a good deal of them will still be in the closet, or at least secretive, about their sexuality.  But for the most part - just like straight people - they're monogamous.  Faithful.  And you have no credible evidence - not one bloody scrap, you arse - that can prove otherwise.

Finally, you don't like reading gay literature that involves lots of sex?  I suggest you stop reading gay literature that involves lots of sex.  Just a suggestion.

Now, kindly do the entire forum a favour and shut up.  I cannot understand the degree to which your mind has been warped.  What experience you must have encountered to turn you into such a homophobic imbecile, spouting rhetoric like... like Hwi (pardon my language).

[athanasios]

Also: the book of Revelation doesn't count.

Of course. What doesn't fit you doesn't count.

[Wolf]

athanasios: Should've read further (or I should use more simplistic language, such that you won't feel so intimidated by long posts in English): it doesn't count because it actually really helps my side of the debate and really hurts yours. I was giving you all the chance to take the unforced error back. But, no, that's fine. I'm sure a discussion on the Book of Revelations will help to enlighten us all as to why we should take scripture at face value. Really? Are you sure you want it to count?

EDIT: And of course I don't like what's said in Revelations: don't you? Or were you rooting for the Cylons?