Israel Issues

[exatreide]

Israel invaded Gaza, and Lebenon, and the possiblities of war against Syria are high. If Israel and Syria go to war...

Then Iran is bound by treaty to attack Israel

America is bound by treaty to defend Israel from attack.

Looks like everything that could go bad, has gone bad.

I do however, maybe I'm a little biased being a zionest and Jew myself, but I do support the Israeli attacks.

I think of it like this, what would your reaction be if Mexico wanted the land they lost in the 1840's back, and that it was "their land". So mexican rebels(supported by the mexican goverment) shoot rockets goverment are fired into LA, Tuson, and Dallas, what would your reaction be if mexican suicide bombers struck in Orlando? Washington or Des mois? not to mention national gaurd troops kidnapped from the boarder to be shiped to...columbia.

Same reaction as Israel's. Full military retaliation, and destruction of the terrorist cells.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Its about time that Israel started kicking some butt.  Chuck Norris Style at that. Thats how you win wars... with style.... and roundhouse kicks. When the Israeli Minister said that Israel would "Turn the clock back on Lebanon 20 years" ... that was just oozing with style.  SO much better than the lame remarks you hear from Iran or N. Korea.  "We will annihilation to be bringing to you".  How lame is that?  Thats the lamest thing I've ever heard of.  Turn the clock back 20 years? Now thats sexy.  Yea, thats what i say right before i whoop someone's ass.  Bob, I'm turning the clock back on your ass 20 years.  Then i roundhouse him and as he cries like a baby i say "That was just 10 years, here's the other 10".  But i digress. 

Israel is doing the right thing.... Lebanon says they need more time to dialogue with Hezbollah because they cannot forcefully stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel.  Israel says tough shit sherlock your ass is whooped.  Seriously, if a country cant stop its own factions from commiting acts of war, they deserve a swift roundhouse to the face. Take Responsibility for things.... you dont see me saying "oops sorry i cant stop my leg from roundhousing you" .. nope i say.. "yea i roundhoused your face.... whatcha gonna do?"  Furthermore, Israel is doing what they should have done along time ago, completely crush the opposition into submission.  Thats what i do.  The middle eastern factions cannot be allowed to namby pamby around....... running from here to there launching little rockets whenever they feel like it.  Its sorta like if your daddy is asleep and you flick him on the nose... then he awakens and whoops your ass.  I bet you will never flick his nose again.

If Israel attacks Syria, Iran will have to help because of a treaty.  Because Iran has never broken a treaty before right?  Oh wait.....yea i thought so.  Safe to say Iranians wont be attacking anything except their wives when they go home.  Remember boys and girls, America and Israel always win because they have Chuck Norris Style.

[nemafakei]

The sad thing is that from anyone else's mouth, that would be a damningly sarcastic criticism of Israeli foreign policy.

[ordos45]

Israel cannot appear weak.  Thus, they will fight, for there is no other option.  To appear weak will only bring more bloodshed when everyone and their brother sees the weakness and launches an all out invasion of Israel.

[Dunenewt]

British ships are going to Lebanon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5184018.stm

[nemafakei]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5112846.stm

It seems this is what sparked off the Corporal Shalit incident. Interesting that an Israeli solder in Gaza is 'kidnapped' or 'abducted' by the governing group of the area, whereas Palaestinian civilians in Gaza are considered to be 'arrested' by the government of another country.

[Davidu]

Was there any declaration of war of Israel against Lebanon?

If not, then the attacks should stop. Moreover the lebaneese military did not retaliate. Meaning Lebanon agreed with Israeli attacks against Hezbollah bases in southern Lebanon. But the bombing of the civilian airport in Beirut, the bridges and roads around the captal, bombing the ports and laying siege of a country, and continous attacks against civilian and military targets of a country that did not attack nor retaliate seems to be over-exagerated ( if such a word exists).

Of course Israel has the right to defends itself, so I said it was ok to raid the Hezbollah bases in southern Lebanon. I can't see the point of taking out the civilian aiport in Beirut, or the ports. As far as I know the main air base of the Lebaneese military has been attacked. Why? Lebanon did nothing. The fact that Lebanon cannot stop Hezbollah doesen't mean Lebanon needs to be exterminated.

This turn of events is most unfortunate because it throws Lebanon back into the chaos it was 20 years ago. And I really don't see how Israel can benefit of having a ravged country and all the instability that implies, as a neighbour.

Moreover these random attacks against civilian targets in Beirut will increase the harted of the Lebaneese against Israel, making more and more of them to join the terrorist ranks.

And the way of thinking that if someone did something to me I will kill him and all his family and all of his people doesn't seem to be more evolved than the ideologies of WWII. If you kill one of my soldiers I will kill a whole village of yours. That is NOT right, because it makes everybody radicalize.

The sollution I see, but that is no longer possible, is to work with the Lebaneese Gvt. and try to win over the population, so their own people would renegade the terrorists.

The way things are going shows that there is no more moderation, no more tollerance, brute force is not welcome in such delicate cases. I mean Lebanon is a very divised country. There are pro-syrians, christians, lebanese nationals, Hezbollah. Instead of making these groups reject the terrorists, meaning Hezbollah, the attack will make them unite against Israel.

The whole operation looks to me as a very bad long-term plan. Even if Israel wins ( as if anyone if opposing) this campaign will be followed by wave after wave of terrorist attacks.

[Caid Ivik]

This war isn't a campaign against a specific target, it's goal is no "victory". Just an intimidation, like when their fighters flew over Asad's house in Syria. Well, perhaps it was only a rumor or a fake report, but the situation was analyzed so that to maintain its position, Israel must act more physically. Worst is, that it is no crisis, an air raid seems to be a standard answer.

[exatreide]

Was there any declaration of war of Israel against Lebanon?

If not, then the attacks should stop. Moreover the lebaneese military did not retaliate. Meaning Lebanon agreed with Israeli attacks against Hezbollah bases in southern Lebanon. But the bombing of the civilian airport in Beirut, the bridges and roads around the captal, bombing the ports and laying siege of a country, and continous attacks against civilian and military targets of a country that did not attack nor retaliate seems to be over-exagerated ( if such a word exists).

Of course Israel has the right to defends itself, so I said it was ok to raid the Hezbollah bases in southern Lebanon. I can't see the point of taking out the civilian aiport in Beirut, or the ports. As far as I know the main air base of the Lebaneese military has been attacked. Why? Lebanon did nothing. The fact that Lebanon cannot stop Hezbollah doesen't mean Lebanon needs to be exterminated.

This turn of events is most unfortunate because it throws Lebanon back into the chaos it was 20 years ago. And I really don't see how Israel can benefit of having a ravged country and all the instability that implies, as a neighbour.

Moreover these random attacks against civilian targets in Beirut will increase the harted of the Lebaneese against Israel, making more and more of them to join the terrorist ranks.

And the way of thinking that if someone did something to me I will kill him and all his family and all of his people doesn't seem to be more evolved than the ideologies of WWII. If you kill one of my soldiers I will kill a whole village of yours. That is NOT right, because it makes everybody radicalize.

The sollution I see, but that is no longer possible, is to work with the Lebaneese Gvt. and try to win over the population, so their own people would renegade the terrorists.

The way things are going shows that there is no more moderation, no more tollerance, brute force is not welcome in such delicate cases. I mean Lebanon is a very divised country. There are pro-syrians, christians, lebanese nationals, Hezbollah. Instead of making these groups reject the terrorists, meaning Hezbollah, the attack will make them unite against Israel.

The whole operation looks to me as a very bad long-term plan. Even if Israel wins ( as if anyone if opposing) this campaign will be followed by wave after wave of terrorist attacks.

Lebbenon's PM declared it a "state of war". Declarations of war are rare these days, it' not 1939 anymore. Those wern't civilan targets, the airport brought in supplies for Hezbollah to use against Israel, the ports brought in supplies for Hezbollah, the high way system brought supplies to Hezbollah. Civilans have not been targeted directly at all, civilans were put to infront of Military Radar sites, Radio Towers and fuel dumps by Hezbollah.

Currently Hezbollah is stronger then the Lebennon goverment. A civil war could result in which Hezbollah won.

[veK]

I'm cerntainly no friend of islam and all the countries like lebanon, iran, syria...

but Israel is far worse in my opinion. they sit on a landscape and are surrounded by countries which want to destroy them and don't accept israel. so what's the point of living there anyway if you can't enjoy it? if I were Israeli I'd get my ass out of there and live somewhere else...

this whole Israel crap (building a state right inside of all the islam countries around) was one of the most stupid decisions ever. if it wasn't for that asshole hitler and the holocaust we wouldn't have that problem now because no jews would have been killed and nobody could claim the landscape nowadays known as israel to be the country of the jews.

as I don't like any kind of religion I don't care much about what's going on over there as long as they keep killing themselves and don't make it a "big war". stupid morons (both sides)...

[Dunenewt]

Umm Judaism came before Islam...

[exatreide]

Why should Israel leave when they won every single Arab Israeli War?

The drive to retake Israel happend alot earlier, around the end of world war one and the disolving of the Ottoman Empire. It wasn't just a flash in the pan dececision. Besides thats the Jewish holy land, it's not like they could just settle in Kansas and wait for the messiah.

[Dunenewt]

I'm sure they'd rather settle in Cali though...

[Wolf]

Look, it's been a long time since I posted, but here goes.

Since July 5, the US, Israel, and the industrial world demanded the release of Israeli hostages and were subsequently ignored. This was done after a pattern of hostage-taking by Hezbollah over the last several decades where Israeli hostages would be traded for a disproportionate number of Hezbollah, Hamas or other prisoners under the weight of media and diplomatic leverage. For example;

"Israel has carried out several prisoner swaps with Hezbollah in the past to obtain freedom for captures Israelis. These include a January 2004 swap in which an Israeli civilian and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers were exchanged for 436 Arab prisoners and the bodies of 59 Lebanese fighters. In 1985, three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon in 1982 were traded for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners."

On July 10, seven Israeli soldiers were killed by Lebanese forces. An act which was described by Israel as an act of war.

Personally, I think everyone in the Middle East is going to have to start reaping the fruits of their selfish efforts over the past century; Arab, Westerner and Jew alike. It's only just Lebanon's turn.

[Davidu]

I didn't hear anything about the event of July 10.

Well, exatreides, the whole Lebanon can somehow be useful to Hezbollah... should it be nuked so it becomes a radioactive wasteland so no Hezbollah is able to live there or pass through?

I've seen on Tv today the missle attack Hezbollah launched on a town around Haiffa, if I'm not mistaken, though Haiffa itself was also hit. The problem is now this spiral of violence cannot be stoped so easily. IMO the whole situation was dealt with in a catastrophic manner. In such cases I think the Secret Service must act, not the military. Mossad is known to be the best Secret Service in the world.

I'm sorry to say but this is a classic scenario where only the civilians get hurt.

Let's hope the conflict won't go into Syria because then there will be HUGE problems.

[Edric O]

I go away for 10 days and the entire Middle East goes up in flames! :D

Clearly, the actions of Israel in this situation are bizzare at best and irresponsible at worst. Being "abducted" (or captured, or whatever you call it) is certainly less bad than being killed. So why is Israel reacting more violently when its soldiers get captured than when they get killed? Even from a purely pro-Israel point of view, this is simply illogical.

Look, it's been a long time since I posted, but here goes.

It's always nice to see you back, Wolf. :)

Since July 5, the US, Israel, and the industrial world demanded the release of Israeli hostages and were subsequently ignored. This was done after a pattern of hostage-taking by Hezbollah over the last several decades where Israeli hostages would be traded for a disproportionate number of Hezbollah, Hamas or other prisoners under the weight of media and diplomatic leverage. For example;

"Israel has carried out several prisoner swaps with Hezbollah in the past to obtain freedom for captures Israelis. These include a January 2004 swap in which an Israeli civilian and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers were exchanged for 436 Arab prisoners and the bodies of 59 Lebanese fighters. In 1985, three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon in 1982 were traded for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners."

That is Israel's own fault for valuing the lives of its civilians and soldiers so far above the lives of Arab civilians and soldiers. By trading 1 Israeli civilian for 436 Arab prisoners, Israel is setting the exchange rate at 1 Israeli = 436 Arabs. This makes Israeli prisoners extremely valuable, so they become a highly prized "commodity".

What Israel should have done in all those cases - and in the present situation - is to say "we'll trade you one of our prisoners for one of yours. If you don't like it, you can kill the Israelis you captured, but then we'll kill an equal number of your soldiers that we captured". That is fair. Launching a huge military offensive to rescue one or two soldiers is stupid.

[Wolf]

Like I said, Edric; reaping what they had sewn. This isn't going to go spotlessly for Israel -- wars  never do, but Israel as a state has tied itself so firmly to the idea of making good on its threats that it cannot backdown; unfortunate for diplomacy, good for state solvency.

[Shiroko]

so what's the point of living there anyway if you can't enjoy it? if I were Israeli I'd get my ass out of there and live somewhere else...

I enjoy living here....  :)

And FYI even Israel would come to be without the holocaust as well. Maybe a little later but still.

-Shiroko

[Edric O]

In the long run, Israel cannot survive in a hostile environment through brute force alone. If it didn't have powerful allies such as the United States, it could easily be defeated by its neighboring Arab states through simple attrition. The population of Israel isn't that large - all you have to do is keep throwing wave after wave of your troops at it and it will eventually collapse.

Israel currently has a massive technological advantage over the Arab states, plus the backing of the world's only superpower. But it can't rely on the assumption that this will go on forever. That is why it would be wise for Israeli politicians to use the carrot more than the stick.

[Dunenewt]

Not really, the Israeli's could annihilate pretty much any Arab state, especially considering its got Turkey's backing really, and Jordan will always be neutral.  Israel has the A-bomb.  Israel wins.

[Edric O]

Not really, the Israeli's could annihilate pretty much any Arab state...

And then what? The people of that country will still hate Israel. The problem is this: 7 million Israelis are surrounded by many tens of millions of hostile Arabs. No matter how many times Israel wins, the Arabs will keep hitting back, and their vastly superior numbers give them the long-term advantage. The only way for Israel to end the conflict by force is to kill every single Arab in the Middle East - a genocide of unheard-of proportions.

Simply put, under current conditions, Israel will have to fight (and win) wars after wars after wars after wars... ad infinitum.

Personally, I'm rather neutral with regards to the whole Arab-Israeli conflict, because I think it is one of the most pointless wars in history. I don't think a two-state solution could ever solve anything, given the fact that both sides want ALL of Israel/Palestine for themselves. The only real way to end the bloodshed would be the creation of a united Israeli-Palestinian state. But don't ask me how that may be achieved... Some comrades have been floating around the idea that only a socialist revolution may create the climate for such a unification, and that even then it would be hard to end the conflict. I tend to agree.

[Dunenewt]

People in land which glows in the dark don't tend to produce offspring, therefore eventually the Arabs would run out of people.  Anyway, against Israel, there is:

Iran

Syria

Lebanon

Egypt

And that's it in terms of nations.

[Anathema]

Screw the Arabs. It's not as if Israel invaded and occupied Libanon for almost 20 years and prompted the creation of Hezbollah to expulse them. Israel never did anything to provoke the Arabs and you are silly if you think so.

???

Egypt has recognised Israel as a state, they have extremists calling for Israels destruction but they're a major thorn in the side of the official government.

The official Lebanese government doesn't have anything agaist Israels existence as far as I know. Lebanon is a heterogenous state with many moderate muslims as well as christians. Hezbollah and its supporters are just a minority (albeit a significant one)

Iran: not Arabic. Really to far away to do anything about Israel themselves, they'll support their local proxies: Hezbollah, wich is closely modeled after the Revolutionary Guard.

As for a solution: I'm glad it's not my job to solve anything. It may well be insolvable. I used to think neither side was morally superior, but I'm slightly pro-Israeli since Hamas' victory in the Palestinian elections.

[Wolf]

Oh, I forgot to say. Edric, you're wrong about the prisoner trades. No nation accepts such a practically unfavorable trade such as 1,100 prisoners they captured in exchange for the corpses of their comrades. While it would be amusing to see Israel be so arrogant as to "drive the price of its human life upwards," Israel's ruthless, aggressive doctrines do not support this mentality in their people. Israel wants results, and if there had been any room for negotiation, I believe Israel would have preferred the opposite side of the ratio in prisoner exchanges. To say that Israel intentionally accepts unfavorable trades out of sheer hubris is absurd.

[Anathema]

I really shouldn't be awake right now.

Welcome back Wolfwiz!

Look, it's been a long time since I posted, but here goes.

Since July 5, the US, Israel, and the industrial world demanded the release of Israeli hostages and were subsequently ignored. This was done after a pattern of hostage-taking by Hezbollah over the last several decades where Israeli hostages would be traded for a disproportionate number of Hezbollah, Hamas or other prisoners under the weight of media and diplomatic leverage. For example;

"Israel has carried out several prisoner swaps with Hezbollah in the past to obtain freedom for captures Israelis. These include a January 2004 swap in which an Israeli civilian and the bodies of three Israeli soldiers were exchanged for 436 Arab prisoners and the bodies of 59 Lebanese fighters. In 1985, three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon in 1982 were traded for 1,150 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners."

On July 10, seven Israeli soldiers were killed by Lebanese forces. An act which was described by Israel as an act of war.

Personally, I think everyone in the Middle East is going to have to start reaping the fruits of their selfish efforts over the past century; Arab, Westerner and Jew alike. It's only just Lebanon's turn.

I'd say that many Lebanese people are the innocent victims in the whole middle east political scene as they're used as toys by Israel, Iran and Syria. Lebanon is very diverse, many christians there secretly hope that Israel will use this opportunity to destroy Hezbollah. That's my hope, too.

In other news, 8 Canadians die in Lebanon.

By the way

Release them or we will turn back the clock 20 years in Lebanon.

Spoken like a true terrorist.