There's Nothing Wrong With Games, Dammit!

[Acriku]

In my opinion, games can lead those who are impressionable and naive (namely, young children) into a psyche that is unstable, leading to violence or whatnot. That's not the fault of the games, that's the fault of the parents. Parents are once again not looking at themselves for fault, rather they pick on other companies as easy targets (much like the fat people who decided to pick on McDonalds for making them fat). Games are fun, meant to instill new experiences and fun times. But, and while they are not made for this, they can be used by mentally immature people (namely, young children) and result in an unstable psyche. Games are merely the mechanism, whereas anything else can become the mechanism if the child devotes as much time to it as they do with games. If they watched Scarface at the age of 10-14 thousands of times, and envelop their world around it then their psyche can be unstable. Again, this is not the fault of Scarface, this is the fault of the parents for poor parenting skills. The mothers of MAVAV need to look at their own skills before blaming others.

[GUNWOUNDS]

The scarface example was a good one.

Thats one of the points i made as well in my post above.... namely that hours and hours of repetition is what the main culprit is... not the game itself.

[Dude_Doc]

I saw "Alien" (the one with Sigourney Weaver, ::) ) when I was 7. I'd probably not be writing this if I had done something because of that...

[Dragoon Knight]

I'm glad to see that the overwhelming majority of you agree with me on this.  Of course, the idiots that advocate this kind of attitude would say that our opinions on the matter are biased.  I would argue to the contrary; how many of these 'mothers' do you think have ever played a game?  I'm reminded of a couple of scenes from the Adam Sandler movie "The Waterboy"...

"Momma, my teacher said that Ben Franklin discovered electricity."

"I discovered electricity!  Ben Franklin is the devil!"

"Momma, I wanna go play College Football."

"Foozeball?!  Foozeball is the devil!"

It's the same attitude held by the people at MAVAV; they're just a bunch of whining excuses for parents who can't control or raise their children in a way that allows them to distinguish fantasy from reality.

I saw "Alien" (the one with Sigourney Weaver, ::) ) when I was 7. I'd probably not be writing this if I had done something because of that...

I agree with you there.  I've been watching movies rated '18' in the UK before I should have been watching 'PG' ones.  Terminator 2, Demolition Man, Species (heh heh)... loads of them.  No adverse affects whatsoever.

As for all the comments geared towards the games being 'responsible' even in part for violence / killing... let me just re-state what some of you have already said; the fault is with the person, not the game.  If someone goes and kills and blames it on a game, they're either using it as an excuse or being truthful suffering from displacement.  It's like banging your toe on table-leg and blaming the table.  I'm tired of hearing all this anti-gaming crap everywhere I go.

I'm telling you, if parents would just go back to smacking children for being bad / disobedient, we'd have a lot less little shits nowadays, and concurrently less warped minds going out and killing people and blaming it on games / society / this here tomato.

[DukeLeto]

Bad parenting is to blame for a lot of it.  And then there are just wackos.  In the '60s, Charles Manson said the Beatles told him to kill people in their lyrics.  I'm sure in the '80s shows like Sledge Hammer! (which is, coincidentally, an awesome show) were blamed for violence.  Today it's video games.  I'm sure the irresponsible parents and deranged maniacs will have a different scapegoat by 2020.

[VigilVirus]

The show Sledge Hammer was blamed for violence? How's that possible?

[Acriku]

The scarface example was a good one.

Thats one of the points i made as well in my post above.... namely that hours and hours of repetition is what the main culprit is... not the game itself.  If kids only played video games 2 hours a day (length of one viewing of Scarface) then it wouldnt be so bad.  But lets be honest... most kids playing video games over the summer basically play 18 hours a day and playing a simulator where you shoot people in the head for 18 hours a day can really change you especially at that young age.  But i agree that all blame should fall on the parents and not the products.

Yep. Kids might be playing games too much. It's up to the parents to judge what is the right amount, and it seems instead of spending their time doing that they spend it becoming a part of MAVAV.

I played games for a long time, but I still took the time to develop interpersonal skills outside of the monitor because I knew that it was different than interpersonal skills between computers. I agree very slightly with MAVAV that you can't spend every day all day on the computer in your maturing years and expect to be as outgoing as I needed to be for my job at Publix as a cashier, but that kind of relationship with people isn't needed to be successful in society. So, it's not at all that gamers have poor social skills. It's just that if they don't take the time outside of games to interact with other people, they may have trouble with being outgoing (something they'll probably avoid anyway). Besides, some people are wired to have a personality of being to themselves anyway, regardless of if they're gamers. But, everyone's different and so making it a fact that gamers have less tendencies to have outgoing personalities is rediculous.

[alchemi2]

The problems with society today is society today, no one take responsibility for there faullts or actions it's always some else fault, schools and parents are restricted in delievering disipline and everything has to be PC.

For years TV was blamed for behaviour and violence now it's games or the internet or the combination of both.

'studies' have shown that exposure to voilence does breed violence or make it appear more acceptable but computer games can't carry the can for that alone surely watching people get blown to peice during live news coverage is just as bad.

I've played games all my life (41 years there of) i've never gone out of my way to beat people up or cause trouble, im law abiding and never been in touble with the law. Happily married 4 kids,have friends and work collegues, socialise and generally try to be decent. Only problem is trying to fit it all in. ;)

[Aristeas]

I live in a quarter million $ house, I have a good job, a wife, a kid, and I'm in grad school. I was a United States Marine and still keep in relatively decent shape.

Yeah...obviously  gaming has made an unathletic loser out of me...

::)

edit: I'll tell you the difference between me and my "athletic" neighbors.  We all go to work, come home, deal with the things we have to deal with (kids, chores, etc) When they finally get their "downtime" on weeknights and weekends they're turning on the tube and watching a football game, golf, or a sitcom.  When I get my downtime I'm firing up World of Warcraft, Emperor, or AoE2, etc.  At least my downtime has more to do with interraction than just sitting and watching a game or a show unfold. I also might be playing that game with other people be it in a roleplaying setting like in WoW or a competitive setting like playing AoE2 online against other players.  You can't say this for watching TV.

I'll bet you that most of the people that look down their noses at gaming because it isn't athletic are the same people that have it in their heads that "athleticism" is sitting on their asses and watching a Lakers game.

All that said, they approach being right about the social aspect...but they don't quite make it.  Gaming, by and large, isn't something you can share with people.  Watching a football game is. More people are into that sort of thing than they are gaming...or at least they are at the moment. (I think this is changing)  Therefore, gaming is something that would tend to isolate you from those in your physical proximity. 

My theory is that a lot of gamers share certain personality traits.  I think that many gamers (not all of course) tend to have at least a little bit of the loner in them.  If it wasn't gaming isolating them it would be something else.  I always tended to be something of a loner.  Sure, I have a couple of good friends (and consider myself very lucky for having them) but I've always enjoyed my time alone.  Gaming gives me something else to do while I'm alone but doesn't make me a loner. I was this way to begin with.  Which is to say, gaming does appeal to the socially inept but does not make one socially inept. Besides, there's socializing going on within a game world anyway. You talk to people in an MMORPG.  You might talk to your opponents and your allies in a multiplayer RTS.  These conversations don't strike me as any less relevant than leaning over to your buddy and talking about how great a play the Cowboys just made...or whatever.  I dare say that in some instances gaming might help to bring a shy kid out of his or her shell a little bit...like talking on the phone.

[GUNWOUNDS]

I agree wholeheartedly.... gaming lets you socialize with people on your terms. 

[ps501]

or more simply put, you socialize with people you have things in common with. 

[Beonid]

Thank goodness it's all a hoax.

[Dragoon Knight]

That particular site may be, but the views expressed are not, Beowulf.  There really are people out there who think all of this.

Seriously; the only thing that makes me feel violent is pricks like that spouting crap about games.

[GUNWOUNDS]

Dragoon i think the point of the link about it being a hoax is that the people who get all riled up (like you) are being made fun of.

[nemafakei]

I wasn't trying to claim that video games have no effect whatsoever on your mental state - I was merelyy pointing out that coincidence of violence and violent video games does not necesarily mean relation.

Note also that all your analogies refer to more temporary states. Very few people are inherently hungry. Mushiness is closer to it - but funerals make people cry, they don't make them mushy. To demonstrate what I mean, let's alter the first one slightly.

Does watching pornography make people degraded?... Or is it just that degraded people prefer to watch pornography?

I would concede that it's possible for video games to put you in an angry or irritable mood (just as a game of sport can). I'm not so sure they can affect your general disposition - for the vast majority of the population, at least, video games can't make you a violent person.

[GUNWOUNDS]

there are many degrees of violence tho..... doesnt have to be murder...

violence can be any form of physical or mental abuse.

[Dragoon Knight]

The author of the link supplied by Beowulf did seem to take great pleasure in pointing out that it was a hoax.  My point, however, is that there are people exactly like that out there.  The creator of the hoax was just copycatting the insanity that already existed, and is propagated daily by idiots like Jack Thompson.

Contrary to what you said, Gunwounds, I am not for even a second denying that games invoke emotional responses.  I haven't met a guy yet that didn't get a lump in his throat when Aeris died in Final Fantasy VII; nor have I met someone who didn't get goosebumps during "The Landing" scene in Final Fantasy VIII.  Equally so, I have met plenty of people who get really angry about the incompetence of other players in WoW Battlegrounds, and even more who rant and rave for no good reason over any game.

But this doesn't mean we're turning into violent people because of games.  Games are not "killing simulators"; they are not "murder trainers"; they're not "corrupting the minds of our children"; they're not "purposely mis-rated"; they're not any of the bullshit that the U.S.A. keeps pumping out by the truck-load.  They're just GAMES.  Those who can't distinguish between games and real life are the ones in need, and they are a vast minority.  So why does the media try and make us believe that the entire gaming community is dangerous, violent and unstable?

Because it sells.  And for every single person who believes what they're saying, the average IQ of the world is lowered a little bit more.  Games definitely incite emotions in people, and those emotions include anger, but they also include happiness, excitement and sadness.  Games make people empathise with them, and it just so happens that a miniscule amount of people empathise with certain scenes of violence in certain games.  I could dispute even that, with the argument that these kids just used games as a handy excuse, but be your own judge.

It's for this reason, Gunwounds, that just because I say the assholes that perpetuate these lies make me feel violent, it doesn't mean I'm going to go after them with an uzi.  I'm intelligent enough - like thousands upon thousands of gamers out there - to distinguish between what I feel and what I can and cannot do.  It wasn't violence in games that made me feel this hatred towards them; it's every single emotion portrayed by every game I've played, combined.  These people are trying to deny us the right to experience these emotions in the way that we see fit, and that really pisses me off.  I'll say it again...

There's nothing wrong with games, dammit!

[GUNWOUNDS]

ok that was a satisfactory response.  ;)

[Dragoon Knight]

*Doesn't know what to say* :D

[nemafakei]

"As for the degraded question Nema.. i would say BOTH are valid.  There is something called callousness.... or apathy.. you start to get used to what you are exposing yourself too.  After awhile  seeing someone's brains get splattered over and over... it no long makes you wince.... its as normal as drinking a cup of coffee in the morning.  Its why Doctors can cut people open and it doesnt bother them.  Once you expose yourself to something repeatedly you dont think twice about doing it."

I suppose that some of your unconscious inhibitions are reduced by exposure to such material, yes. That can at best make you subconsciously apathetic. I don't see why it should then make you violent.

And doctors learn to cut people up by being given a dead body and actually doing it, and the conscious knowledge that something is real is still a significant barrier which fictional media, from books to videos to computers cannot cross.

Those whose conscious distinction between the real and the fictional, however, is not stable are in need of help, as Dragoon Knight says.

There are many who can't/won't appreciate the fact that it's normal to be able to distinguish (the "it's terrible - they all talk about it as if it's real" type), and that really doesn't help when people with an actual problem are dealt with as a symptom of computer games.

If I were to watch pornography, it would mean that, on a subconscious level, I'd be more apathetic. It wouldn't alter my conscious thoughts about it, nor would it change my disposition so far as to make me want to watch pornography.

[GUNWOUNDS]

    Actually you are wrong Nema.... if you watched lots of porn it would make you want to watch more, pornography can cause addictions like anything else.

Its due to positive feedback.

[stefanhendriks]

i don't think that has anything to do with gaming. Any kind of addiction is not related to voilence. Unless the 'kick' you get from being voilent can make you addicted to voilence itself. Still, it does not have anything to do with gaming.

I totally agree with the 1st post ;)

[Dragoon Knight]

Lots of replies to this thread can only mean good things. :)

It's great that my opinion is generally shared by the FED2k community, and as long as we know we're right, then we're OK.  I've begun to notice the "LOL" response the gaming community is coming up with when faced with these accusations of violence.  For example, this T-Shirt shows how we can either get mad, or just sit back and laugh our collective asses off.

The amount of times I've wanted to say to someone "Don't annoy me, I'm a gamer; I'll probably chainsaw you to death or something" cannot be represented using standard mathematics. :P

Don't get me wrong, the whole issue still pisses me off... but here's "t

[GUNWOUNDS]

i don't think that has anything to do with gaming. Any kind of addiction is not related to voilence. Unless the 'kick' you get from being voilent can make you addicted to voilence itself. Still, it does not have anything to do with gaming.

I totally agree with the 1st post ;)

violence can be addictive.. its called a "kill thrill"  bascially your body releases an excessive amount of Adrenaline giving you one hell of an Adrenaline Rush... this can be very addictive and its quite commonly released during hardcore gaming sessions.  But this just means you will get addicted to the game itself and not necessarily the violence.  But its hard to say for sure 100%... so i cant say your totally wrong but i cant say your totally right either.

[KALONY]

hey...,

i dont think, that games morphs a peacfull kid into a serial killer...of course not. but i know there r persons who`s brains are easy to change (not young children only) and they have the "virus" mostly since they were born.

but the problem of videogames is the problem of every drug. doesnt matters if its cocaine television or videogames. it isolates. u can run into another world if u want fun or even if u have problems with the real world. its realy my own experience. i make music, and i am on the road all day, know a lot of ppl, and stay in a crazy life. but there was a time, when i wanted to make a break. it was the time, when i played emperor 10 hours a day for a few months....well, i can play now like an elite player, but i felt, that it isolates me from everything around me. i didnt talked to my friends as much as before, tzhe girls asked me what the f*** am i doing, i just lost connection to a life. and it made me to felt alone. in this time, it was my wish to felt like this, but i cant say, that it is good for me, or for every1 else. and believe me, i know hundrets of ppl who take drugs in every way, and NO ONE can handle it. u loose always...more or less.

so, the result of this thinking is, when it isolates u, or makes u feel alone or something else, u loose a lil bit of reality, and ppl who has not a strong charakter...who knows what they might think in such a situation, especially, when they have a problem in the reality?

so, i think, video games dont makes u violent, but it could be kinda like a katalysator

and even if it teaches practical things....it dont teach u realy....u dont learn how to speak with peoples, how to live in a comunity, how to solve personaly problems ...how to stay in life or something else.....why the hell i have to know how to load a gun???? or to drive as fast as schumacher???? or to use an b52??? or to kill a man behind a door????

its entertaiment....nothing more....HAVE FUN WITH IT, and open ur door as much as u can to see what happens far away from the sreen next to you!!!