Good and Evil

[Edric O]

Ok, I'm glad to see that we calmed down in the Religious argument. ExAtreides, I respect you views. Like I said, I only get mad at evolutionists if they start bashing Religion. We can easily respect each other's views.

MoiDib, the reason why God doesn't offer huge proof for His existance is to test us. If we all knew for sure that He exists, how could good people be separated from bad people? They would all be good, because they'd be afraid of God.

Now about Paul Muad'hib: I think he was insane. The visions about the future are enough to make anybody crazy. Add to that the intoxication with power, and you get a man who lost his mind. In his madness, Paul became completelly evil. An evil madman. He had moments when he regreted the Jihad, but not many. Just look at the quote about Hitler: One moment Paul is sad about the victims, the next moment he's laughing!

[quoudam72]

I can't believe this has to be deja vu or something?

[ordos45]

Ok it seems the dune2k Jihad is over with only most of our egos wounded a little. But it shows we are calm and rational people who respect the beliefs of others after arguing in circles.

[Acriku]

Edric, just want to clear something up for you. When he laughed, it was because he had a vision that Hitler said the same thing("I find it hard to imagine that anyone will ever surpass this"). You see? He only laughed because he knows he is more powerful than Hitler, and for Hitler to once say no one could surpass what he did, he laughed at him! From this you can sense some evil though, but everyone is evil - just to different extents.

[exatreide]

*Exatreides extends shaking hand toword Edric O*. Peace?

[alejandro]

I think we have talk enough about religion, good and evil, and people beliefs. Gobalopper i think you must close this topic after we all become crazy because everybody has his point of view "locked" and we are very near of a Crusade of everybody vs everybody, and if we all think the Jihad was an error, stop talking now after we begin a new one.

[Gobalopper]

I was thinking of moving this thread to the "general" messageboard, doesn't fit in the Emperor board...

[alejandro]

It doesnt fit anywhere.

[Acriku]

You don't think it fits in the General Discussion/General Discussion area Alex? It's pretty much general subjects.

[salikadali]

Ok, to start with, I have to say that was one of the most interesting threads I have ever read : Dune, Religion, Evolution, WW2, Good and Evil, philosophy, you guys should be proud of yourselves for even attempting these topics. Also, I am not only impressed by the candor, and philosophy, but also by the fact that there are people out there actually thinking about this stuff.(and just thinking in general).

This is my opinion on the Paul/jihad issue. Jihad is an Arabic word, contrary to popular opinion, it does not translate to "holy war", a better translation is "the struggle." The world in wich Paul grew up was full of trechery, the Emperor was conspiring with the Harkonnen to murder his father, he was born because of the love between Jessica and Leto,(against the wishes of the BeneGesserit {sp?} because they wanted someone they could control), and the guild tried to assasinate him. The Harkonnen were ruling Arrakis, the most important planet in the Universe. Corruption everywhere, everyone was abusing power to their own selfish ends.

Now anyone born into this corruption would be a victim of it, with exceptions like the Atriedes, who were veiwed by everyone as a threat(well not everyone,the Landstraad was starting to favor the Atriedes), because they were not corrupt, hence it attracted men like Hallek and Idaho, thus making it more of a threat. I do not believe it was Herbert's intention to make the Atriedes anything like the Nazis, they were warriors, the Atriedes did not use terror tactics, they had no concentration camps or anything of the like, they were noble, and to corruption, nobility is a threat. Hence, we have the Fremen who are very formidable warriors, and they held a universal view that all worlds had become corrupted, and it was their destiny to purify the beliefs of humanity, because belief leads to action, corrupt or uncorrupted. They were not acting from selfish power, although I think Paul doubts himself when he compares himself to Hitler and Gengis Khan.

To continue the argument, I must go to religion. In the books they believed in the (what was it?) Orange Catholic Bible, ok so I assume that they believed in some form of heaven and hell then, In most religions with heaven and hell, a person goes to either one or the other depending on the actions they take when they are alive, and the beliefs/recognitions they have, which dictate actions(I'm not an authority on this subject, but I believe everyone reaps what they sow). Beliefs are formed by the world a person is exposed to, so if a person is born on Gedi Prime, they probably have a different set of "morals" (Feyd) than, lets say Caladan (Paul).

So you can possibly argue that by (the Fremen) changing the the belief system of the Universe, then they are in fact saving humanity from corruption, thus saving all future lives from being effected by this corruption, at the expense of the lives of those who resisted it. Did the Fremen become corrupt themselves, I am not sure, but I do think that they believed in what they were doing, and what they were doing is different than what the Emperor or the Guild,or the BeneGeserit, or the Harkonnen were doing, so I do not percieve them as evil, when the others knew they were acting in selfish interest, the Fremen and Paul at least thought they were doing good.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic, and I have enjoyed everyone's imput, and respect for one another's opinion. and I like playing the game too!=]

[Acriku]

Very well said ggeshino. Sound's like your a fanatic just like the rest of us.

[Edric O]

*Edric O shakes hands with ExAtreides* Peace!

*Edric O and ExAtreides receive Nobel prize for peace* ;D

My basic point is that killing people is WRONG, no matter how good the effects might be. It is not right to kill one to save a world, unless that "one" is responsible for the destruction of the world. In other words, it is wrong to kill the few in order to save the many, unless the few are guilty of killing the many.

As a result of that philosophy, I strongly believe that the Fremen are evil. But they don't realize it. They are mad fanatics. As for the Atreides (what's left of them) they are evil because they command the evil Fremen.

[ordos45]

I remember in one Dune book there was something about the Fremen. It more or less said that they lived a hard life and killing was just part of it.

Killing should never become commonplace. Did u know some snipers keep books with the names of those they killed? Some...not all, but some of them like to remember those they killed because they feel true remorse for it. Killing and then remorse for it...does that mean they're evil if they feel remorse?

[quoudam72]

Death was all round the Fremen the desert is unforgiving. It had a commonplace in the culture of the people. It was not right or wrong that was the way that it was with the Fremen. In short they learned it from the enviroment around them. Given time they changed their ways from outside influences and that took away from who they were. To give you my answer Ordos45 the sniper has to deal with his actions for himself good or evil.

[alejandro]

No MoiDib, i dont think so, I think this topic is turning into a fanatic crusade of everybody trying to make the others belive that your thinks are right and the others are wrong. Exactly like Paul

[quoudam72]

I respect your opinion but I do not agree with you about it. It's still something that needed to happen(this discussion) for if nothing more than learning purposes. I do believe I am right about the things I have discussed who wants to be wrong? If you do not stand for something you will fall for anything. And falling for anything is just like standing for nothing. If you can't question what you believe in why believe in it at all. Questioning is a part of the learning process is it not? Fanatic or not we all are learning something from this discussion.

[Acriku]

Except with less statistics Alex :) Although some might have gone blind trying to read these long-arse posts.

[Edric O]

Don't you think it's about time to end this argument? Here are the reasons:

1. We'll never get anywhere.

2. There's no point in arguing. Only Frank Herbert knew the real answer...

3. The loding time for this topic is LONG! And I mean LONG!

If this discussion won't end, I officially assign Shaddam Corrino to represent me (the prosecution) in the "Muad'hib file". :) I won't reply to this any more.

[salikadali]

Edric O, I agree, killing without reason or justice is WRONG. I think Paul and the Fremen were justified up to the point at the end of the first book, defeating the Harkonnen, and the Emperor. I do not think that thier actions were evil at this point. After that, I dont know if it was justified, because we are talking about a (fictional) Universal war that involved billions of people. I think even Paul doubted its justice at some point. What I am saying, is that the Fremen at least thought they were doing the right thing, were almost everyone else ; The Harkonnen, The Emperor, The Guild,; (who were in power in the first book) knew exactly what they were doing was in selfish persuit of power, which they tried to kill people to maintain. Their actions were obviously unjustified, and thus, they fit into the category of those who kill for reasons other than justice. Sadly, we see this in the real world as well.

I believe it is wrong to use deadly force for anything other than defense, although defense is sometimes hard to define,(example: one could hardly call D-Day defensive, but it was neccesary none the less.) Morality and justice should dictate action. To invade and subjugate a country (or planet for that matter) for the reason of conquest ALONE, I believe is wrong. Hitler did this,(Hitler was a racist criminal who murdered his way into power). Im getting off subject, but oh well, **** it, I think this is worth talking about. If you were in France in 1939, would you just let the Nazis come in and take everything over, setting up nightmare concentration camps everywhere, persecuting their racist doctrine at the expense of countless lives? I would not, I would fight, and gladly die for my beliefs.

Vive la Resistance!

Ok, I've calmed down. Anyway, I don't think that the Fremen and Paul were evil up to the point when they defeated the Emporer the Guild, and the Harkonnen. After that, I'm not sure.

P.S.- I respect everyones right to have an opinion, and I think this is very interesting.

[ordos45]

Sorry to hear u won't be arguing anymore Edric. I doubt any of us will be before long, everyone has just about spilled all their rage and opinions.

[Mahdi]

Yeah, I think its time for this topic to die.

One more thing though (not part of any debate):

I don't think people beleived in the orange catholic bible in Dune, becasue Paul,a t the age of 15, got his first one from Yeuh, he had never seen it before, and after he quoted a passage of it to his mother, she wondered where he had learned the ancient texts.

[daniel]

well ppl if u think about it....if u haf the power...i mean look at it some of u guys in the games ar elike..use harks cause they burn em to death...yah its a game..but in the human mind...well we are kinda cruel...i mean im pretty sure that if u were in major power/////was winning...going to bcome the BIG

[daniel]

another thing....about suboids.i dont think that they really are sccs i mean think about it they haf no well...brains

[exatreide]

hoow many times must i tell you this LOKI no one here knows what the hell your talking about. will you plese try to be specken the enlish a little better

[Acriku]

LoL if you read in between the !@!@!!'s you can make out something. But I think the problem is LOKI is at his relative's house who's keyboard has all this Chinese stuff or something, and it's messing up stuff. But sometimes he writes legible posts. :)