Good and Evil

[ordos45]

"The Atreides might play devious games against enemies, but never against friends and allies, and not at all against family. It was ground into the Atreides manner: support your populace to the best of your ability; show them how much better they lived under the Atreides."

Children of Dune Page 127 in both the Ace and Berkeley Science Fiction Versions.

I thought this might shed some light on our good and evil arguement.

[garth]

OK here's the moment we've all been waiting for.....the casualty list of Paul's Jihad:

(pages 135-136 Ace paperback version of Dune Messiah)

61 Billion dead (conservative estimate, as said by Paul)

"sterilized" 90 planets (again he used the word sterilized)

"completely demoralized" 500 others

"wiped out the followers of" 40 religions

I am convinced now, more than ever, that he was evil. Just look at the language he uses when he talks about his butchery......

[quoudam72]

I see you found it. Now let's see where it leads us.

[Acriku]

You can't literally change the future because if you think you saw the future and you change it how do you know the aftermath wasn't the real future after all? And I agree this argument has no ends so how about we keep by our opinions and be peaceful. As for Paul being evil, that depends on your ethical beliefs.

[Edric O]

Of course. If you think it's ethical to slaughter tens of billions of people, make the survivors worship you as a God and live in luxury, the I guess Paul wasn't so evil after all. :)

[Mahdi]

Of if you think its ethical to worship money, endorse slavery, and utilize mindcontrol then I guess the Ordos arn't so evil after all:)

[exatreide]

settle down you two.

[Digital Guerrilla]

O.K. now that we have the facts on Paul's jihad 61 billion dead, 90 planets sterilized, etc. Paul does not seem to be enjoying this in any manner. And when he mentions Hitler and Ghengis Khan was he not trying to teach Stilgar some type of lesson or show him just how he really felt about the jihad having taken place? Because the old saying of "if you don't know the past you are doomed to repeat it" comes to my mind when he mentions the lack of data that the Buterlians left them after there own jihad. When he liked himself to those two Hitler and Ghengis Khan it was not admiration IMO.

[garth]

Hehe time for me to join the party and bash my own house :)

House Corrino - lusting for power, greedy, militaristic, treacherous, arrogant, corrupt, aloof

See, they're not so evil after all :)

"When he liked himself to those two Hitler and Ghengis Khan it was not admiration IMO."

He was comparing his own butchery to those past leaders, admiration or not, he was six times worse than Hitler. Maybe I'm behind the times on this one but I've always thought that killing people wasn't good......

[ordos45]

Lets see. Time to bash my house. Greed, torture, wanting and attempting to control the universe. Oh well who cares if its all evil it ish so much fun

[Digital Guerrilla]

Well what I said didn't say that killing was right. O.K. Mr.Shaddam. :P Cause when I read Children of Dune there is a conversation between The Preacher(who is Paul) and Leto II and he is telling Leto II about the path he is about to take with his rise to power. I found Paul to be regreting certain actions of his past not something an evil person would do not evil to the core. Anyway stop picking on me wait for Fedaykin-Sandwalker to post you and him have much more colorful arguements anyway.:)

[garth]

Hehe I wasn't implying that you said killing people was good I was just saying that it doesnt really matter if he was reveling in his slaughtering of countless billions or not, he still killed people and that was wrong. He's evil.

[ordos45]

Is killing animals as wrong as killing people? Because when I was sick I coughed on my cousin's hamster and they found it dead in its cage the next morning

*some guy runs around screaming about Hamstercide*

Anyhow he just didn't kill people he killed 61 Billion people. Now lets see if 2 wrongs supposedly make a right how many 2 wrongs did Paul need class to make what he did right?

[Edric O]

Mahdi, you missed the point. I never said the Ordos were good! They are just the least evil of the Houses. I admit that the Ordos do many evil things, but other Houses do much more of those.

The Atreides, on the other hand, PRETEND to be the good guys, while Paul and Leto II were the biggest mass murderers in the history of humanity! The Atreides are not just absolutelly evil, they also claim to be good!

The Ordos' evil deeds are NOTHING compared to what the Atreides did. And yet the Atreides still pretend to be the good guys!

[alejandro]

Do you have something against Europe Edric?. Imagine that like you have said that hitler was send to America? What happened if she reached the power there?

WW2 would change dramatically, all europe against America and Japan.

[Acriku]

I agree that it was evil what Paul did but he had no control over his visions and even if he killed himself someone else would have risen to power (ie Alia) and order the Jihad to do what they did. So maybe there was no escaping the future, eh?

[garth]

I think Alia would've been even worse than Paul (that's hard to imagine), she was after all possessed by the Baron Harkonnen.

She would be the embodiment of the worst of both families.

[exatreide]

well if hittler rose to power in the us. you all would be bowing to hittler right now. cause we kick all your asses. *exatreides runs down into his basement/bomshelter and mounts a 50 caliber michengun laugheng bring it on muhahahahahahahahahha*. sorry had to do.Edric the people of caldan were good people the duke wnet down to festivals and helped on the feilds. lets se thehe executricx do that. they were good leader untill that dammable paul cam along. with the weirding things and the water of reincarnation.

[ordos45]

Ok. So it would be hard to imagine the Executrix floating amongst the populace. Alia though she just seems naturally evil. Even as a little kid (with more memories than all of us put together) she seemed to look out for her own interests.

Had to modify this because can we count the God Emperor as part of humanity Edric? He was a boy and became a worm.

[quoudam72]

MoiDib that is a very good point, there was no way to avoid the future the jihad was going to take place. Alia was weak for all the power she possessed and I pity her for her damnation. Imagine having all these "other" people inside of your mind from childhood not once being a regular child I think that leads to psychologial problems you as you grow into an adult. Then on top of that having that disgusting Baron Validmir Harkonnen being your only form of so-called salvation. Alia's jihad would have been even more wicked because she had become twisted the way I see it. Abomination indeed as the Bene Gesserit said. Damn it! I'll have to agree with Shaddam_Corrino for the moment but only the moment cause after it will be back to business as usual.:) Eh Shaddam?

[garth]

Hehe......for the moment :)

[alejandro]

JA JA JA Exatreides, I think you havent understand, do you really think that only the US could defeat every European countries armies an navy togheter? Think the consecuences of Hitler in US:

1. Austria never joined with Germany

2. The French army and navy never has been defeated

3. The Spanish Civil War ended in 1 Month (Without the Germany support the rebels never could win) so Spain could join in the allied navy and army.

4. Sweden, Norway, Poland, Belgium, Netherlands,Denmark never has been ocuppied so they could fight.

5. The U.S.S.R could change his operations to the Pacific.

6. Italy would join the European army or be occupied by Germany, France, and Austria.

7. etc etc etc....

And dont forget that all the scientists that developed the newest weapons in US were from Germany before the war, so if they stay in europe the first nuclear weapons will be developed in Europe against YOU

[exatreide]

your forgetting of course that the reason germany lost the war was becouse they ran out of trops and fuel. well america has a crap load of nateral reasorses tons of man power and and the only navy in the world besides japan to have aircraft carriers.

1. it took germany 10 years to build up a army. and it was a good size armie. but think if the us built up there forces they would be unstoppibul.

2. allie with japan the 2 strongest naves in the world together and we would rule the pacific.

3. join frocesses with the soviet union. help them build up there forcess. with there incredibul man power we would rule europe.

4. VICTORY

[Edric O]

What a stupid argument (the one about WW2)! I said that I would send Hitler as a child to America! Way before he became a nazi! This way he would never rise to power ANYWHERE.

[alejandro]

and you forget that the main resources(oil) was under british control, the UK fleet was very strong with the other countries fleet you lost,

1. there wasnt aircraft carriers in the atlantic.

2. you can rule the pacific if you like, but rememeber that once japan reached is objectives in China, they stop fight

3. USSR never join with you, Rusia has been europe along his history and now too, so they join us, and can use his resources and manpower in china against Japan with support from British India etc..

5. Once japan defeated US stay ALONE, USSR could conquer alaska.

6. VICTORY