Europe's Utopian Hangover

[Gobalopper]

http://www.forbes.com/columnists/free_forbes/2003/1006/037.html

Makes some interesting points about France and their current problems.

[Anathema]

Why is the article date set to 6 october 2003?

And I don't deny that the EU has problems, but the writer seems to imply that the US economy is running perfectly. And from other articles written by this guy I don't get the impression he likes Europe very much.

[Edric O]

Oh, so the brilliant solution to all our problems is to cut standards of living? Riiiiight... ::)

It seems the author of that article is desperately trying to find excuses for the embarassing fact that the standard of living of the average European is much higher than that of the average American. He points to some of the problems that the EU faces right now in its infancy, and makes ridiculous apocalyptical predictions about the future, which have very little in common with reality. We've heard these sort of predictions before. British and American "experts" have been predicting the imminent doom of the EU for over a decade, but their prophecised apocalypse still hasn't come. Instead, the EU has constantly moved forward.

If Americans enjoy their ridiculously high level of social inequality, their horribly under-funded social services and their short life expectancy (compared to Europeans), then they should indeed be thankful that their economy is run by businessmen. If their economy was run by "bureaucrats", then - heaven forbid - they might actually have higher standards of living.

[Dude_Doc]

Indeed. It feels like this author only brings up the worst of the now and the past of Europe. Strong feeling of jealousy.

[Egeides]

Earthnuker says basically what I think. I agree with the author but presenting the US economy as a solution seems an even worst utopia to me. I believe in pretty much France and Germany's economical ideas less the "work less and it's better". I think this is pretty much each person's choice and it's not what I'd chose. The author is taking only the bad aspects when looking at France and Germany while taking only the good ones when looking at USA.

[SurlyPIG]

Yes, the EU is coming towards the end of the "la-la land" phase every left-winged economy faces. It's going to be pretty short lived. The USSR's lasted much longer before reality set in.

[Edric O]

Keep dreaming, Ace. We are not going to fall on our knees and repent for our "socialist sins", and your long-prophecised capitalist judgement day is a fantasy. The reality is that the citizens of the EU enjoy the highest standards of living in the world, and that the only thing your beloved right-wing capitalism has ever produced is inequality and poverty.

[Egeides]

ACE, I think we see as much la-la from working not enough than working too much, and this is right for left as much as right.

When the right starts seeing its leader not working because they are incredibly wealthy, you get the European nobles and monarchs.

Here again, I would refer to the Rosevelt era that saw an economy getting better compared to what happen after, until only one salary wasn't even enough and jobs got less secure, less paid, etc.

[Edric O]

By the way, you might have noticed that there has been a rising tide of protests and unrest in the EU recently. People are indeed starting to get quite unhappy with the present situation, but not in the way you expected. They are protesting against right-wing measures which the government set in place. The social problems currently faced by the EU are caused by the capitalist side of its economy. People are protesting because they want LESS capitalism, not more.

[Acriku]

I wouldn't put too much into protests, and into what they want or not want.

[SurlyPIG]

Dreaming? Moi? I think not. My claims are realistic. History supports what I have said. An attempt at socialism starts off great, reaches a peak, then falls, gaining speed exponentially. And the more socialist that nation becomes, the greater their debt, and the worse their fate. China learned from Soviet mistakes, and as a result their economy is among the fastest-growing in the world.

And who said anything about capitalism? I support a mixed economy.

And whether or not what you're saying about the protests is true, I don't know. I hadn't even heard of any. But I'll tell you one thing, people who think like me are more interested in, you know, working than protesting. And how is capitalism all of a sudden causing social problems? You've always said an economy is separate from social matters. I know for sure no economic policy is responsible for some of the ridiculous social circuses going on in Europe, like Britain's publicly funded sex changes or Holland's policy of buying prostitutes for diabled people.

Egeides, once again I have no idea what your point is.

[Dante]

Now see, this is why we should just the whole thing go down the drain and revert to feudalism. Wouldn't that be so much simpler? I'd say, "See my topic about the collapse of the economy," but it's been taken over by... something else.

[Anathema]

Lol, the EU is nothing like the Soviet union Ace. For one thing it's a market economy and the life standards in the SU were heinously low. Secondly, the EU consists of multiple economies with varying problems.

The guy who wrote this obviously dislikes Europe and the left wing movement. Strange how some people on this site are so eager to believe him when he says the EU is doomed to fail..

[Babylon]

I personally think the US should 'fear' us. I think that if Europe really starts to work together we will become the most influential country in the world.

Look at it:

Resources: Everything we need

Technologie: Same level as US and Japan

Military: All added togehter pretty big

Living standard: Highest in the world

Economy:

[Atomic Mitten]

Obviously no ones read the prophecies of Nostradamus.

[Mahdi]

If only Europe would become one country..

Again? Remember how well that worked the last few times?

[Dude_Doc]

If only Europe would become one country...

"If only the World would become one country..." - Think about that ;) .

[Babylon]

Again? Remember how well that worked the last few times?

The last few times it wasn't one Europe. It was a big France or a big Germany. That's something different.

[Dante]

We tried global rule once. And look what a disaster it was. Hark, the fall of the British Empire... ;)

[Edric O]

Dreaming? Moi? I think not. My claims are realistic. History supports what I have said. An attempt at socialism starts off great, reaches a peak, then falls, gaining speed exponentially. And the more socialist that nation becomes, the greater their debt, and the worse their fate.

First of all, the EU is not an attempt at socialism. And from 1923 onwards, neither was the Soviet Union.

Second of all, please enlighten me on how you can derive such a general rule from a single example. By your logic, if we were living in 1815 in Europe, I would be perfectly justified to say that every attempt at democracy starts off with high hopes and ideals, then falls into violence and terror, and finally results in an empire bent on world domination. ::)

And whether or not what you're saying about the protests is true, I don't know. I hadn't even heard of any.

There were several worker protests a few onths ago in Germany against the "left-wing" government's pro-business laws, and a number of strikes in France against unfair wage and pension laws.

The European Left is losing the support of the working class, because they don't consider it to be left-wing enough. And since radical communist parties are too weak to gather popular support, that leaves a dangerous power vacuum. This would be an ideal time for a "New Left" to rise, but for some reason no one is taking up the challenge.

But I'll tell you one thing, people who think like me are more interested in, you know, working than protesting.

You mean you're more interested in delivering a good profit to your employer than standing up for your rights. I understand.

And how is capitalism all of a sudden causing social problems? You've always said an economy is separate from social matters.

Of course. But an unjust economy can make people angry, and angry people are the very definition of a "social problem".

[Acriku]

Oh please Edric, everybody is angry about something, but it is hardly a social problem.

[Edric O]

Errr, what are you talking about?

I meant when tens of thousands of people (or more) are angry about the same thing. That's when it becomes a social problem.

[Caid Ivik]

As most of Europe is against EU social and agricultural support system, it seems that some of those socialistically turning tendencies will have to calm down. Also it won't be able to exist as a unite state with such constitution as was offered - if state doesn't declare its own reason, how it can exist? I think that we will create some union of more free borders and trade with west, but a real unite state will be only between France, benelux countries, Germany and perhaps Italy. This new "Roman Empire" will exist for 50-200 years, depending on USA, Russia, G.Britain and other european countries, if they'll create a counter force.

[Dunenewt]

Couldn't have said it better myself except I don't think that Italy will join

[Edric O]

As most of Europe is against EU social and agricultural support system, it seems that some of those socialistically turning tendencies will have to calm down.

As long as Europe does not have a strong radical left-wing party (or alliance of parties) to stand up for the rights of the working class and to demand full socialism, the workers will continue to be divided and powerless. Easy prey for you and your conservative vultures.

But if someone were to fill the power vacuum that currently exists in the Left and raise the red flag once again, we might actually live to see the end of capitalism in Europe.

This is not something that can be done by one person acting alone, or by a small minority. We need a powerful grassroots movement organized by the people themselves. The time has come for the people of the world to stop relying on the empty promises of great leaders and would-be prophets, and to start relying on themselves. Only united as equals can we change the world.

Also it won't be able to exist as a unite state with such constitution as was offered - if state doesn't declare its own reason, how it can exist? I think that we will create some union of more free borders and trade with west, but a real unite state will be only between France, benelux countries, Germany and perhaps Italy. This new "Roman Empire" will exist for 50-200 years, depending on USA, Russia, G.Britain and other european countries, if they'll create a counter force.

Reality check: The USA is the de facto ruler of the entire world. As proved by the recent Iraq crisis, individual European countries cannot stand up to the overwhelming American power. We can either unite into a strong European Federation that can deal with America as an equal, or we can each stand alone and be crushed.

As for Britain, it's about time it swallowed its pride and faced reality. The 21st century will see the end of the Nation-State. The Brits can either join the United States of Europe or the United States of America. Or they can stubbornly cling to their independence and be reduced to the role of a minor player in world affairs.

And about the European Constitution, I recently visited a site whose motto put it best:

NO to a constitution without a country, YES to a European federal state!